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I Still believe, in PRACTICE, not in theory or just looking at measurements, it is NOT as detrimental to the sound as most are making it out to be.
If it was, there would be all kinda complaints BEFORE these "Reviews", not after them.
I get the feeling if Amir said, it sounds good anyways and it is not a big deal, 3/4 of the forum would agree and downplay the dispersion issue, instead of playing it up.
A bit of jumping on the bandwagon here I think. And I mean that in a respectful way.
Nah just targeting a customer that doesn't know to care about horizontal dispersion. Nobody is able to make a 3-way/coaxial center for under $250 right now, so we are left with MTM designs in the budget category. I swear, some of y'all think you won't hear anything at all out of this speaker if you sit one seat to the right.
I am a customer that SHOULD care, but simply find it not that big a deal in real usage.
Can I hear it? Of course, to some degree, but it is not as if it ruins the sound. In fact it seems to just be a tonality change, when I sit on my far left and right seats.
But it does not seem or hinder hearing the dialogue at all, it just alters the sound a bit.
I guess kinda sick of hearing how horrible and unusable every center speaker supposedly is, based on looking at some measurements of said speakers, that most in the forum have never owned nor even heard.
It seems fairly easy to jump on a bandwagon and bash stuff here.
But the elephant in the room being, this center speaker (MTM Dispersion) issue only became an issue, AFTER reading it was an issue, in several center speaker reviews recently.
Where are the numerous threads OUTSIDE of these reviews lamenting what a great problem it is and how unusable all center speakers are?
I love this forum greatly, but often detect a lot of "Follow the leader" mentality, for lack of a better term.
Anytime something is reviewed as the least bit substandard, several of the same guys, bash it as if it was totally unusable and trash.
You could say that about any number of issues this forum has raised that weren't commonly understood before. Dialogue intelligibility and center channel clarity are a really common complaint about home theatres. This is certainly not the only reason for that, but it's likely one of them.
I don't really see what's wrong with identifying a problem so we understand it better. This IS a real, demonstrable, and audible problem -- regardless of your opinion -- and it's fair to demand manufacturers do better. Some(eg SVS, Monoprice, Emotiva) already have, so ASR is not the only entity out there that thinks this is the wrong design for a center.
If you own one of these(no idea if you do or not) or a similar design, and you're happy with it, that's totally fine. You don't need a reviewer to reinforce your happiness if it's working for you. Lots of us own or owned products that would've been poorly reviewed on here, me included.
Nah just targeting a customer that doesn't know to care about horizontal dispersion. Nobody is able to make a 3-way/coaxial center for under $250 right now, so we are left with MTM designs in the budget category. I swear, some of y'all think you won't hear anything at all out of this speaker if you sit one seat to the right.
Emotiva C1+ is $249 at regular price. Infinity RC263 is frequently available as low as $149 on sale, which is how much I paid for mine. There is almost no reason to settle for the poor performance that all 2 way MTM center channels provide. Even if sitting directly on axis, sound quality will be needlessly compromised. We don't *only* hear on axis sound, we hear a combination of reflected and direct sound. Reflected sound has a big impact on sound quality, so the abysmal off axis sound of 2 way MTM centers is detrimental even when in axis. It's just less bad. Saying lots of people are happy with it is a terrible argument. Lots of people are happy with TV speakers or cheap sound bars.
The RC263 hasn't been available for months. If the sale was coming back, now would be the time. It was a stellar value while it lasted, but I'm afraid they're all gone now.
There is almost no reason to settle for the poor performance that all 2 way MTM center channels provide. Even if sitting directly on axis, sound quality will be needlessly compromised. We don't *only* hear on axis sound, we hear a combination of reflected and direct sound. Reflected sound has a big impact on sound quality, so the abysmal off axis sound of 2 way MTM centers is detrimental even when in axis. It's just less bad.
I'm aware of all of this. I own a 3-way center. My point is that people acting appalled at the dispersion are overreacting. This is not a mistake by the designers. They are well aware of the limitations of an MTM design. In this case, it's simply a tradeoff to hit a price point.
I guess kinda sick of hearing how horrible and unusable every center speaker supposedly is, based on looking at some measurements of said speakers, that most in the forum have never owned nor even heard.
It seems fairly easy to jump on a bandwagon and bash stuff here.
But the elephant in the room being, this center speaker (MTM Dispersion) issue only became an issue, AFTER reading it was an issue, in several center speaker reviews recently.
Where are the numerous threads OUTSIDE of these reviews lamenting what a great problem it is and how unusable all center speakers are?
I love this forum greatly, but often detect a lot of "Follow the leader" mentality, for lack of a better term.
Anytime something is reviewed as the least bit substandard, several of the same guys, bash it as if it was totally unusable and trash.
When a 'good' center speaker doesn't do as good at its *intended audio function* as a good 'L/R' speaker would (placed in the center position, vertically), something's wrong. Especially since it's not an unsurmountable design problem, as Amir and others have pointed out multiple times.
Not 'unusable'. Just 'not as good as it should be'.
I would love for some brands which are more readily available in Europe to be reviewed, preferably cheaper speakers. KEF R2c would be nice, or SVS Prime and Ultra. Right now all the cheaper speakers measured, e.g. infinity, are not available in Europe. And Revel is just too expensive...
In addition, it would be great if we had the matching tower speakers reviewed. I mean what good is buying a great center speaker if the matching L/R tower speakers are crap?
RC263 is most economical 3-way center available only when on sale. At its $500 list price several other 3-way centers undercut it. The RC263 does disappear from stock for long stretches causing speculation that it's been discontinued. But it keeps respawning and going back on sale at ridiculously low prices.
I Still believe, in PRACTICE, not in theory or just looking at measurements, it is NOT as detrimental to the sound as most are making it out to be.
If it was, there would be all kinda complaints BEFORE these "Reviews", not after them.
I get the feeling if Amir said, it sounds good anyways and it is not a big deal, 3/4 of the forum would agree and downplay the dispersion issue, instead of playing it up.
A bit of jumping on the bandwagon here I think. And I mean that in a respectful way.
In this world, centers weren't worthy of complaints or contempt. In my experience, all centers were bad. Until Infinity RC263. I just need to hear and discern dialog at any volume. Boss hog doesn't care about center dispersion issues cuz he is in sweet spot. Everyone else asks to turn it up or closed captioning.
I use the L/R main plus sub for music. I typically sit close to the center point between the L/R speakers when listening. To be clear, I am not trying to optimize the entire HT setup for off-axis seating positions, just making trade-offs that allow the whole family to enjoy decent sound when we watch movies together. The others in the family don't care as much about the center image when watching from the corners. But I'm often the last to take a seat when the film starts...that inevitably means a corner seat.
Emotiva C1+ is $249 at regular price. Infinity RC263 is frequently available as low as $149 on sale, which is how much I paid for mine. There is almost no reason to settle for the poor performance that all 2 way MTM center channels provide. Even if sitting directly on axis, sound quality will be needlessly compromised. We don't *only* hear on axis sound, we hear a combination of reflected and direct sound. Reflected sound has a big impact on sound quality, so the abysmal off axis sound of 2 way MTM centers is detrimental even when in axis. It's just less bad. Saying lots of people are happy with it is a terrible argument. Lots of people are happy with TV speakers or cheap sound bars.
The C1+ and RC263 have not been available new for at least 3 months, which was when I started looking. The RC263 probably won't be coming back. The C1+ says temporary, but I wouldn't be surprised if the price goes up whenever it does come back.
The Polk S30 (MTM) was actually recommended by Amir. Not all MTM's are bad, but you wouldn't know it by reading the comments. Some people seem to be basing their opinions on a very small sample set.
In this world, centers weren't worthy of complaints or contempt. In my experience, all centers were bad. Until Infinity RC263. I just need to hear and discern dialog at any volume. Boss hog doesn't care about center dispersion issues cuz he is in sweet spot. Everyone else asks to turn it up or closed captioning.
It's not that complicated. Most consumers buying center speakers want/need something that physically fits beneath their TV and doesn't look terrible or totally out of place. They are already a minority compared to the soundbar crowd. For people who prioritize fidelity over form and have some basic knowledge, most horizontal MTM centers are a poor choice. Speaker manufacturers are not stupid. They know their markets far better than the forum members. Low profile centers sell better than monkey coffins. Its not incompetence to make a product that sells.
This forum favors objective measurements as a critical factor in selecting audio components. Folks here are not simply "better informed" than other consumers. We are pursuing different goals and have different priorities. All the marketing BS from manufacturers and their vendors muddles things, but that's nothing new or unique to center speakers.
The RC263 hasn't been available for months. If the sale was coming back, now would be the time. It was a stellar value while it lasted, but I'm afraid they're all gone now.
I'm aware of all of this. I own a 3-way center. My point is that people acting appalled at the dispersion are overreacting. This is not a mistake by the designers. They are well aware of the limitations of an MTM design. In this case, it's simply a tradeoff to hit a price point.
Maybe you are responding to someone else here as I never made this argument.
THIS, is my point entirely. It is a design limitation, not a totally unusable speaker as several have stated.
We all get, it is to save money, or space for under a TV or on a stand, but if it was as bad as many are Claiming, manufacturers would get wind of this and change their designs. The very fact they do not, is at least "Somewhat indicative", that how they work now (MTM Centers) are not unusable or horrible.
The large amount of "Poor" ratings, indicates that a large chunk of the forum are making extreme judgements, based on a low priced speaker, that was intentionally designed this way, and it is not out of the ordinary.
Similar to bashing small speakers for having not much deep bass. It is a design limitation, based on price and the most common usage, and requirements of most typical users.
To me, a POOR rating would be a very expensive speaker, or a far larger center that does not perform greatly. In the ranks of small low priced centers that FIT a space, this is NORMAL.
