JBL M2 versus 4367 Shootout

[jtwrace]

Nothing, if you use the right DSP (BSS BLU). @jtwrace uses BLU-50 with other amps for his. Key advantage of approach is no fan noise.

If you use a different DSP do not expect an online “crack” to port over. BSS uses different math for certain filters. I have personally measured this compared to miniDSP, Storm/Bryston, and HTP-1.

A simple curve fit based on measured output of a BSS, if such exists, may be fine, considering home SPL requirements. But those drivers are expensive, so one should consider risk-reward IMO.

Some say kilowatts of power are required. I am unconvinced, though willing to consider a cogent argument. It is a compression driver and efficient 15” woofer in a huge ported box! Unless you need deafening sustained SPL I don’t see the logic there. By the same token, if the amps are remote you could save a bunch by using Crown DCIn. I suspect the base model 300x4 would be fine for home SPL.

Yes! Someone who gets it. It troubles me that some people really think an online crack as you call it is accurate. Sure, maybe on axis and even a few off axis measurements are but that's a very small part of the story.

 

[Manojrc]

Hey Guys,
My first post here. It looks like a great forum that thanks to Google, I stumbled on...

I’m an M2/Crown owner. First a little history of what I’ve owned and where I’ve come to this point in my audio travels. Martin Logans, Apogees, Wilson Audio WATTs, Infinity Betas, Linkwitz Orion and LX521s. Yes, my wife is very tolerant. I now own the M2s and a pair of Sub18s with a pair of Crown DCI|1250n amps. I’m a music lover and a lover of environmentally produced sounds like crowds, traffic (cars), trains, etc.

Let me say, I don’t know what post it was, but someone was spot on about setting these up without help. The M2s are not for the easily inhibited audiophile. The 4367s are a much safer choice for those not wanting to roll up their sleeves and get dirty or if you don’t have a place to hide the noisy fans based amps. Loading the files for the DSPs takes work to set up and nobody is there to hold your hand. I have since found wonderful guys at Crown to help with the software, files & DSP and guys at JBL to help with the speakers. This has made the learning curve much easier but it still takes work and ultimately you’re the judge of the sound because they aren’t coming to your home to help. You’ll need a PC and you’ll need to become familiar with Audio Architect software to load the files on the Crown amps. Interestingly, the M2 files are locked. So although you can find online the filters they used (and there is a lot of correction filters used), you can’t change them once loaded into the amp. They are locked. This is not so with the Sub18, but then there are nearly as many filters in these files. I can provide more detail on that if desired.

The M2 has 2 files: one for full range and one for use with the Sub18. For a year, I used the M2s full range and they are fantastic but the midrange on these is so intoxicating that I wanted more and so I set out to see if adding the Sub18 (and installing the other file on the amp) cleaned up the 15” woofer’s midrange. To be honest, I probably wouldn’t do it again as the improvement was very slight, but it is an improvement. Probably not a great cost/benefit tradeoff.

The imaging and dynamic capability (don’t confuse this with loudness) of these speakers makes the experience of listening to music, and remember my love for naturally occurring sounds, more live than any other system I’ve ever listened to. The dynamics of the blat of the horn or the rim shot of the drum, oh horns. Oh my god you’d think they are really in the room. Or, for real dynamics, the weight and power of a diesel locomotive at real levels. That potential power is expressed very well through this system. The capability to produce instant dynamics and return to near silence is astounding. I’ve had other systems that audiophiles would drool over, but they always fell short of recreating a live experience.

Anyway, it is a great to see a reasonably well controlled discussion on these speakers. I haven’t been able to find that elsewhere in the audiophile world. There are too many preconceived notions about JBL/Crown and I wish people would learn to trust their own ears.

I look forward to exploring more of this great forum!

Paul

Hey Paul, I'm in the process of getting M2 and Crown i-Tech 5000amps. The info you provided is very helpful. Now on the SUB18, can you please elaborate little more? What I understrand from your post is that the improvement we hear by adding a SUB18 is not significant enough to justfy the added cost. But what are those improvement areas? Better lower end? Better midrange, better imagining & soundstage? Space is not a big constraint for me to add a SUB18, but obviously cost is. Thanks..

 

[jtwrace]

I do not recommend getting one SUB18, I recommend getting 3--4 subs instead.

 

[Champster]

Hey Paul, I'm in the process of getting M2 and Crown i-Tech 5000amps. The info you provided is very helpful. Now on the SUB18, can you please elaborate little more? What I understrand from your post is that the improvement we hear by adding a SUB18 is not significant enough to justfy the added cost. But what are those improvement areas? Better lower end? Better midrange, better imagining & soundstage? Space is not a big constraint for me to add a SUB18, but obviously cost is. Thanks..

Hey manojrc. You’re in for some exciting times ahead and with Amir and Erin’s recent testing of the M2s you’re way more knowledgeable about your purchase than I was. Re: adding the sub, the advantage to separating the cabinet for the lowest frequencies are many. Although the M2 can be very enjoyable without any subs. I ran mine like that for a year or two before getting the SUB18s and enjoyed them immensely. One advantage as jtwrace points out with having more than 1 sub provides being better able to control the rooms natural issues. As Dr Floyd Toole points out in his book Sound Reproduction, below about 300hz each room has issues whereas the room’s reflected sounds contributes to the sound more than the direct sound from the speakers (the opposite is true above about 300hz whereas the main speakers direct sound dominates). Having one is kind of problematic for 2 channel audio. 2 is better and 4 better yet but there is a diminishing return. I settled on 2 but funds and space are absolutely an issue as the SUB18 is a large box. In my case, I noticed the benefit instantly in several areas. First you need to know listeners of my system swear there is no sub playing. It isn’t noticeable at all because I don’t over drive it vs the mains and properly placing them in the room simply takes a lot of time, strength and patience. Once getting all that right however, it is magic with any speaker/sub combo. In my case. I switched the M2s from the full range to the 27hz JBL high pass filter file. It sure doesn’t sound like a lot but it was a start. After much listening I changed that further (in the BSS BLU800 using London Architect) to 70hz at 24db/oct for the sub and M2s. What this did was allow me to move the mains around to more focus on higher frequency issues like imaging & soundstage. Yes all that helped the midrange clarity from the 15” woofer. Remember it plays up to 800hz so getting rid of things below 70hz helps reduce its excursion and thus be more articulate. It is noticeable but in my room it wasn’t easy. I’d skip the sub to begin with. You will have enough learning on you hands just to load the software into the amps and getting it set up. Be very careful to hook the speakers up correctly and don’t overlook the help guys at Harman (Crown) 844-776-4899

I typically listen below 80db which blows people away. Everyone seems to think the M2s are great rock concert like loudspeakers & Oh we all know they can get up and dance at painful levels but they are also very dynamic even at modest volumes. You’re going to love them!

 

[Sal1950]

I do not recommend getting one SUB18, I recommend getting 3--4 subs instead.

Considering the cost of the SUB18, I wonder what you'd think of getting 3-4 subs from someone else like SVS, HSU, etc?

 

[jtwrace]

Considering the cost of the SUB18, I wonder what you'd think of getting 3-4 subs from someone else like SVS, HSU, etc?

I'd say that's fine...even throw in a diy PE Ultimax for ULF would be good too.

 

[Sal1950]

I'd say that's fine...even throw in a diy PE Ultimax for ULF would be good too.

It was just a thought, more like a day dream. LOL
I've got the 2 SVS SB2000's in the system now but also still have my 2 old HSU sitting here, been procrastinating selling them but they're not really worth a whole lot. I'm totally out of wall space in the room except where they're sitting now. Maybe I'll put some ideas together on doing the setup and see how it measures out.. Can't never have too many woofers, right.

 

[jtwrace]

You’d be fine with that setup.

 

[Manojrc]

Anyone familiar with 5628 sub? Dealer doesn't have SUB18 in stock and he recommended 5628 instead..

 

[Champster]

The 5628 uses 2 of the 2269h drivers instead of one in the SUB18, making the cabinet very large (probably 2x a SUB18). The specs seems to be almost identical with each producing sub 20hz in-room response but with 2x the output. It’d be like having a stereo pair of SUB18s except that they’d be less flexible for ideal room placement which in my opinion isn’t a huge issue. Check this out https://jblpro.com/products/5628
Again, I would hold off on the subs until you’ve lived with the M2 alone for a while. You may not feel you need it depending on what and how you listen.

 

[Manojrc]

Surprisngly, SUB18 is more expensive than 5628 in India !!! 5628 is marketed as a cinema sub. Wondering whether it makes sense to use it in an average home..

On a separate note, what's the best way to connect a PC to iTech-5000 HD amp? Buy a miniDSP SHD studio? Or something equivalent?

 

[Champster]

I don't see the 5628 being anything other than a couple of SUB18s but someone else may have a different opinion. I, frankly, haven't looked that close at the 5628 to be qualified to say anything other than what said in the previous post.

Use an ethernet cable between your computer and amp. No need for a miniDSP, or any other, room correction device.

 

[Manojrc]

I don't see the 5628 being anything other than a couple of SUB18s but someone else may have a different opinion. I, frankly, haven't looked that close at the 5628 to be qualified to say anything other than what said in the previous post.

Use an ethernet cable between your computer and amp. No need for a miniDSP, or any other, room correction device.

So basically the ‘Cobranet’ is nothing but an Ethernet port?!!!

 

[Champster]

Remember, these are Pro amps used in applications where there are many in use at a single time. They needed to have a way to connect them all and you'll see when you get the amps and the users manuals that they can all be managed by a single networked computer. it is really cool technology, but one of those things that after you set it all up you can disconnect the cable and put it all away and operate it just like a regular stereo.

 

[Bugal1998]

Anyone familiar with 5628 sub? Dealer doesn't have SUB18 in stock and he recommended 5628 instead..

I run a pair of 5628's with M2s and will go to quads (for frequency response not output) when my dedicated room is built out. My current open and unfinished space has a deep room null right at 20 to 25hz so I'm seeing a steep cutoff at about 25hz. Others seem to get just under 20hz with the 5628. Only thing lacking is a bit of extension, which the Sub18 may resolve.

I may also seal mine for more extension when I have quads and an enclosed space.

 

[Manojrc]

I run a pair of 5628's with M2s and will go to quads (for frequency response not output) when my dedicated room is built out. My current open and unfinished space has a deep room null right at 20 to 25hz so I'm seeing a steep cutoff at about 25hz. Others seem to get just under 20hz with the 5628. Only thing lacking is a bit of extension, which the Sub18 may resolve.

I may also seal mine for more extension when I have quads and an enclosed space.

What was the reason to pick 5628 instead of SUB18? Also why do you think SUB18 offers better extenstion?
5628 offers 24 Hz @-3dB and SUB18 gives 23Hz @-6dB !!

 

[Bugal1998]

What was the reason to pick 5628 instead of SUB18? Also why do you think SUB18 offers better extenstion?
5628 offers 24 Hz @-3dB and SUB18 gives 23Hz @-6dB !!

The deciding factor was price. I can get the 5628s for half the price of the Sub18, the subs will be built into false walls so appearances don’t matter, I have plenty of space for quads, and I felt that doubling the drivers would improve the odds of success if I decided to seal the subs for greater extension. It was a no brainer.

I’ve seen one set of in-room measurements that displayed greater extension than any 5628 measurements I’ve seen which is why I suggested the sub18 may resolve the extension consideration... But that’s far from conclusive.

See here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...theater-speaker-selections.17079/#post-682060

 

[Qbd]

You will get a bit of hiss. No fan mod as I explored that quite extensively and even spoke with a Crown tech about it. In the end, I have what I have below in my sig.

Is there any hiss with your NCore NC502MP amps?

 

[jtwrace]

Is there any hiss with your NCore NC502MP amps?

Nope

 

[jtwrace]

Is there any hiss with your NCore NC502MP amps?

Do you have hiss?