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JBL M2 versus 4367 Shootout

dallasjustice

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I've owned the Vivid G3 before I got the JBL 4367. I'm overall happier with the JBL. The Vivid speakers sound great and are an excellent technical achievement. The weak spot for Vivid is that the drivers and coils are prone to failure when overdriven. Of course, the blame always lays at the customer's foot for overdriving the speaker. IME, shit happens, tho. It only takes one accident and you could waiting a month or two before you hear music again. OTOH, the JBL speakers can take a punch better than Homer Simpson's head.


7 pages of flopping willies on the breeze and no shootout?! :confused:

BTW Laurence Dickie is not a yacht furniture 'loudspeaker' designer. The man does actual work.


 

Champster

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Hey Guys,
My first post here. It looks like a great forum that thanks to Google, I stumbled on...

I’m an M2/Crown owner. First a little history of what I’ve owned and where I’ve come to this point in my audio travels. Martin Logans, Apogees, Wilson Audio WATTs, Infinity Betas, Linkwitz Orion and LX521s. Yes, my wife is very tolerant. I now own the M2s and a pair of Sub18s with a pair of Crown DCI|1250n amps. I’m a music lover and a lover of environmentally produced sounds like crowds, traffic (cars), trains, etc.

Let me say, I don’t know what post it was, but someone was spot on about setting these up without help. The M2s are not for the easily inhibited audiophile. The 4367s are a much safer choice for those not wanting to roll up their sleeves and get dirty or if you don’t have a place to hide the noisy fans based amps. Loading the files for the DSPs takes work to set up and nobody is there to hold your hand. I have since found wonderful guys at Crown to help with the software, files & DSP and guys at JBL to help with the speakers. This has made the learning curve much easier but it still takes work and ultimately you’re the judge of the sound because they aren’t coming to your home to help. You’ll need a PC and you’ll need to become familiar with Audio Architect software to load the files on the Crown amps. Interestingly, the M2 files are locked. So although you can find online the filters they used (and there is a lot of correction filters used), you can’t change them once loaded into the amp. They are locked. This is not so with the Sub18, but then there are nearly as many filters in these files. I can provide more detail on that if desired.

The M2 has 2 files: one for full range and one for use with the Sub18. For a year, I used the M2s full range and they are fantastic but the midrange on these is so intoxicating that I wanted more and so I set out to see if adding the Sub18 (and installing the other file on the amp) cleaned up the 15” woofer’s midrange. To be honest, I probably wouldn’t do it again as the improvement was very slight, but it is an improvement. Probably not a great cost/benefit tradeoff.

The imaging and dynamic capability (don’t confuse this with loudness) of these speakers makes the experience of listening to music, and remember my love for naturally occurring sounds, more live than any other system I’ve ever listened to. The dynamics of the blat of the horn or the rim shot of the drum, oh horns. Oh my god you’d think they are really in the room. Or, for real dynamics, the weight and power of a diesel locomotive at real levels. That potential power is expressed very well through this system. The capability to produce instant dynamics and return to near silence is astounding. I’ve had other systems that audiophiles would drool over, but they always fell short of recreating a live experience.

Anyway, it is a great to see a reasonably well controlled discussion on these speakers. I haven’t been able to find that elsewhere in the audiophile world. There are too many preconceived notions about JBL/Crown and I wish people would learn to trust their own ears.

I look forward to exploring more of this great forum!

Paul
 

jhaider

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Hey Guys,
My first post here. It looks like a great forum that thanks to Google, I stumbled on...

I’m an M2/Crown owner. First a little history of what I’ve owned and where I’ve come to this point in my audio travels. Martin Logans, Apogees, Wilson Audio WATTs, Infinity Betas, Linkwitz Orion and LX521s. Yes, my wife is very tolerant. I now own the M2s and a pair of Sub18s with a pair of Crown DCI|1250n amps.

Envy-worthy setup!

Do you have the amps in a different room?
 

LDKTA

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Hey Guys,
My first post here. It looks like a great forum that thanks to Google, I stumbled on...

I’m an M2/Crown owner. First a little history of what I’ve owned and where I’ve come to this point in my audio travels. Martin Logans, Apogees, Wilson Audio WATTs, Infinity Betas, Linkwitz Orion and LX521s. Yes, my wife is very tolerant. I now own the M2s and a pair of Sub18s with a pair of Crown DCI|1250n amps. I’m a music lover and a lover of environmentally produced sounds like crowds, traffic (cars), trains, etc.

Let me say, I don’t know what post it was, but someone was spot on about setting these up without help. The M2s are not for the easily inhibited audiophile. The 4367s are a much safer choice for those not wanting to roll up their sleeves and get dirty or if you don’t have a place to hide the noisy fans based amps. Loading the files for the DSPs takes work to set up and nobody is there to hold your hand. I have since found wonderful guys at Crown to help with the software, files & DSP and guys at JBL to help with the speakers. This has made the learning curve much easier but it still takes work and ultimately you’re the judge of the sound because they aren’t coming to your home to help. You’ll need a PC and you’ll need to become familiar with Audio Architect software to load the files on the Crown amps. Interestingly, the M2 files are locked. So although you can find online the filters they used (and there is a lot of correction filters used), you can’t change them once loaded into the amp. They are locked. This is not so with the Sub18, but then there are nearly as many filters in these files. I can provide more detail on that if desired.

The M2 has 2 files: one for full range and one for use with the Sub18. For a year, I used the M2s full range and they are fantastic but the midrange on these is so intoxicating that I wanted more and so I set out to see if adding the Sub18 (and installing the other file on the amp) cleaned up the 15” woofer’s midrange. To be honest, I probably wouldn’t do it again as the improvement was very slight, but it is an improvement. Probably not a great cost/benefit tradeoff.

The imaging and dynamic capability (don’t confuse this with loudness) of these speakers makes the experience of listening to music, and remember my love for naturally occurring sounds, more live than any other system I’ve ever listened to. The dynamics of the blat of the horn or the rim shot of the drum, oh horns. Oh my god you’d think they are really in the room. Or, for real dynamics, the weight and power of a diesel locomotive at real levels. That potential power is expressed very well through this system. The capability to produce instant dynamics and return to near silence is astounding. I’ve had other systems that audiophiles would drool over, but they always fell short of recreating a live experience.

Anyway, it is a great to see a reasonably well controlled discussion on these speakers. I haven’t been able to find that elsewhere in the audiophile world. There are too many preconceived notions about JBL/Crown and I wish people would learn to trust their own ears.

I look forward to exploring more of this great forum!

Paul

Till this day, I’ve yet to hear anything better. I currently own the 708s (and these are also quite unbelievable) but later on this year I’ll acquire the M2s (as soon as I move into a newer home with more space).
 

Sal1950

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The weak spot for Vivid is that the drivers and coils are prone to failure when overdriven. Of course, the blame always lays at the customer's foot for overdriving the speaker. IME, shit happens, tho. It only takes one accident and you could waiting a month or two before you hear music again.
Your not the first to experience those problems, I know another with the exact same issues and Vivid wasn't very helpful with support. :(
 

Thomas savage

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Your not the first to experience those problems, I know another with the exact same issues and Vivid wasn't very helpful with support. :(
For me a little of vivids driver issues were lack of testing in the development stage but most was inconsistencies within the manufacturing process. Maybe the tolerances in the design made manufacturing difficult.

Anyway after a lot of back and forth' we ' made them better .

No problems since . A lot of the artisan high-end audio companies are basically garage outfits. Great talent audio wise but often lacking in so many other areas .
 

Champster

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Envy-worthy setup!

Do you have the amps in a different room?

Ideally that would be the best choice, but I don’t have that option so I built a box with some sound reduction characteristics borrowed from car mufflers that works well enough. You can hear the fans when you’re close to the box but not at the listening chair.
 

Impossible

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Do Crown dci amps have a poor noise floor? I. E. Do you get a hissing when it's quiet.

Is there a fan mod to make the amps quiet?
 

jtwrace

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Do Crown dci amps have a poor noise floor? I. E. Do you get a hissing when it's quiet.

Is there a fan mod to make the amps quiet?
You will get a bit of hiss. No fan mod as I explored that quite extensively and even spoke with a Crown tech about it. In the end, I have what I have below in my sig.
 

Champster

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Do Crown dci amps have a poor noise floor? I. E. Do you get a hissing when it's quiet.

Is there a fan mod to make the amps quiet?
My Crown DCi 4|1250n were very quiet even with an ear directly to the horn on my M2s.
Paul
 

Sonnie

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Another revival of the thread... lol. So looking at the 4367 vs the M2. The 4367 are pretty much $15,000 and require your own DSP should you need/want to correct the in-room response... however the M2 speakers alone can be purchased for $8,700. Why not by the M2 speakers without the amps and use your own DSP and save $7,000 over the 4367's? What am I missing?
 

jhaider

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Why not by the M2 speakers without the amps and use your own DSP and save $7,000 over the 4367's? What am I missing?

Nothing, if you use the right DSP (BSS BLU). @jtwrace uses BLU-50 with other amps for his. Key advantage of approach is no fan noise.

If you use a different DSP do not expect an online “crack” to port over. BSS uses different math for certain filters. I have personally measured this compared to miniDSP, Storm/Bryston, and HTP-1.

A simple curve fit based on measured output of a BSS, if such exists, may be fine, considering home SPL requirements. But those drivers are expensive, so one should consider risk-reward IMO.

Some say kilowatts of power are required. I am unconvinced, though willing to consider a cogent argument. It is a compression driver and efficient 15” woofer in a huge ported box! Unless you need deafening sustained SPL I don’t see the logic there. By the same token, if the amps are remote you could save a bunch by using Crown DCIn. I suspect the base model 300x4 would be fine for home SPL.
 

Sonnie

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It just hit me that Jason has the M2's... and I knew that, but had forgot. I know him and will ping him about them.

If the anechoic measurements of the M2 that JBL publishes are without any DSP, which I would assume they are, then using filtered correction in the room shouldn't be an issue with of course the proper filters being applied.

92dB sensitivity should be easy to drive with my current amps.
 

jhaider

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So the measurements are with DSP... seems very unusual. I would think they would measure the raw unprocessed speaker.

Why? Active/powered speakers are never measured without crossovers in published data. Here, the only difference is the active powered bits are not in the box.
 

Sonnie

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If the speakers are sold without the amps, which they are, then I would want to know the response of the speaker, not the corrected speaker.
 

jhaider

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If the speakers are sold without the amps, which they are, then I would want to know the response of the speaker, not the corrected speaker.

What you don’t get is here there is no speaker without DSP. There are two drivers in a box with separate inputs, an unfiltered woofer and a minimal network on the tweeter that’s basically just there to reduce hiss. They may be sold without amps/DSP but are simply not designed to be used that way.

Likewise, JBL Pro does not publish measurements of their 7-series install speakers without the DSP required to make them work properly. I have measured them without the required DSP. If that’s what was on the sell sheet nobody would buy them!
 

Sonnie

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What you don’t get is here there is no speaker without DSP. There are two drivers in a box with separate inputs, an unfiltered woofer and a minimal network on the tweeter that’s basically just there to reduce hiss. They may be sold without amps/DSP but are simply not designed to be used that way.

Likewise, JBL Pro does not publish measurements of their 7-series install speakers without the DSP required to make them work properly. I have measured them without the required DSP. If that’s what was on the sell sheet nobody would buy them!
Clarification appreciated and understood.
 

thewas

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