Ha ha a feisty start to the new year mate.
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JBL L100 Reissue - $4000
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #42
And where am I supposed to listen to them?
In the greater Seattle area (not a small metro area), the JBL Synthesis dealers in the area don't seem to carry it, possibly because it's too cheap compared to the 4367 or too garage-sale looking compared to the Everest line.
Madrona Digital is a JBL Synthesis dealer, so maybe @amirm can comment....
D
Deleted member 5256
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I knew I shouldn't have posted those comments, because people like Sound Argument love to do exactly what his name says....argue. My comments were based on the initial comments of the person who started the thread, who had a legitimate comment about the value or perceived value of $4000 set of speakers. What brand they are doesn't really matter in the big picture, the point is the same. The whole thread was filled with people talking about what they had 50 years ago, why they bought it, how they had a certain sound, pictures of old trashed out speakers, etc. If that appeals to people, great. Read it. Argue. Maybe those posts had value to billions of people who could read them. I'm referring to the OP, and what he stated.
My comments were based on real world experience listening to the new speaker. Who cares if it is a re-issue? That is simply a marketing decision designed to sell speakers and capitalize on past successes. Whether or not it works for JBL, I couldn't care less, any more than I care about a retro car design, or any other thing like that. I'm not a consumer impressed with superficial things.
What matters is what they sound like, and if that sound is what makes you happy. And, assuming it doesn't, why you passed on it. If it does, and you think $4000 is too much, no one is going to fault you for not buying. If you think that you can glean useful information about the new JBL's from a discussion of Cerwin Vega speakers, Rectilinear, old JBL stuff, Altec, or what-ever, you are kidding yourself. Why not hop on over to a brick and mortar store, support your dealer, and listen to a pair, and then offer up your comments? And then everyone like Sound Argument can pooh-pooh them, because he, like many others have decided for all of us what sounds good, and what doesn't. Like tube preamps. Wow, call up Audio Research and all the others going back decades and show them how they have been wrong all this time. Don't bother telling me, because I know what sounds good to me. And I share that with others, for what it is worth to them. If it is worth nothing, hey, no problem.
Just so Sound Argument can chime in again, who said I made any claims about tubes? I went to my favorite store to listen to bunch of new things, and decide if I wanted to upgrade part of my system. Tubes included. Also listened to some dacs, some speakers that cost $300, some that cost $1500, some that were $8000. I also went to listen to one of my favorite brands of speakers too. And, I was so highly disappointed that I comented to the owner I wouldn't take that pair of speakers for free. On the other hand, I found the JBLs to be captivating. And, plenty of others liked them too.
The truly obnoxious comment from the afore-mentioned poster was the one to infer that I was seeking to impress others with what I purchase. Really? Because I said I plan to buy a pair? Are you envious? Are you one of those sad people who blame others for having the ability to spend $4000 on a pair of speakers? Or, maybe you just prefer to spend your money on other things? Frankly I couldn't care less, and don't want to know. For me, I'm going to trade in a pair of speakers I've had and enjoyed, and avoid the temptation to buy more power amps, because the JBL's play plenty loud with less power than I have now. To me, that is meaningful. And, I gathered that info by going to the store, and listening to them on several different systems.
Have a great day, and go listen to the speakers if you can.
My comments were based on real world experience listening to the new speaker. Who cares if it is a re-issue? That is simply a marketing decision designed to sell speakers and capitalize on past successes. Whether or not it works for JBL, I couldn't care less, any more than I care about a retro car design, or any other thing like that. I'm not a consumer impressed with superficial things.
What matters is what they sound like, and if that sound is what makes you happy. And, assuming it doesn't, why you passed on it. If it does, and you think $4000 is too much, no one is going to fault you for not buying. If you think that you can glean useful information about the new JBL's from a discussion of Cerwin Vega speakers, Rectilinear, old JBL stuff, Altec, or what-ever, you are kidding yourself. Why not hop on over to a brick and mortar store, support your dealer, and listen to a pair, and then offer up your comments? And then everyone like Sound Argument can pooh-pooh them, because he, like many others have decided for all of us what sounds good, and what doesn't. Like tube preamps. Wow, call up Audio Research and all the others going back decades and show them how they have been wrong all this time. Don't bother telling me, because I know what sounds good to me. And I share that with others, for what it is worth to them. If it is worth nothing, hey, no problem.
Just so Sound Argument can chime in again, who said I made any claims about tubes? I went to my favorite store to listen to bunch of new things, and decide if I wanted to upgrade part of my system. Tubes included. Also listened to some dacs, some speakers that cost $300, some that cost $1500, some that were $8000. I also went to listen to one of my favorite brands of speakers too. And, I was so highly disappointed that I comented to the owner I wouldn't take that pair of speakers for free. On the other hand, I found the JBLs to be captivating. And, plenty of others liked them too.
The truly obnoxious comment from the afore-mentioned poster was the one to infer that I was seeking to impress others with what I purchase. Really? Because I said I plan to buy a pair? Are you envious? Are you one of those sad people who blame others for having the ability to spend $4000 on a pair of speakers? Or, maybe you just prefer to spend your money on other things? Frankly I couldn't care less, and don't want to know. For me, I'm going to trade in a pair of speakers I've had and enjoyed, and avoid the temptation to buy more power amps, because the JBL's play plenty loud with less power than I have now. To me, that is meaningful. And, I gathered that info by going to the store, and listening to them on several different systems.
Have a great day, and go listen to the speakers if you can.
These are JBL Products which is distinct from Synthesis line. So it is not something we deal with at Madrona.
Got it. For our end, please remember that access to audio products has become very difficult with reduction of retail locations and explosion of brands. So people come and discuss things based on what information is available. Good that you like the speakers. Would have given more motivation for people to listen to if your post was not so grumpy! And I say this as someone that is usually grumpy about audio products.
D
Deleted member 5256
Guest
Watchnerd: I cannot help you there. I'm truly surprised there isn't someone in the Seattle metro-plex who has them. Have you checked out Portland? Not that far from you. (easy for me to say...I like to drive) I lived in Washington State a long long time ago. Loved the area. I travel to Portland quite a bit on business. Love that too.
Maybe your comment is more valid for me to comment on....and it is only getting a lot worse. Amazon had a 19% increase in online orders this season. While the brick and mortar guys just keep closing down. There is an entire generation who don't know what good systems sounds like, because they grew up listening to MP3's, etc. I feel fortunate to have had tons of great gear over the years, and a good friend who has a great store. I keep my gear for a long time, and trade up when it makes a real difference. When I started with hifi I was in the Army, making $600 a month. I bought the best I could, and took good care of it. I do my best to have a good listening room. I've traded in expensive gear for much less expensive gear because the less expensive stuff sounded better. In particular, I feel that speakers have gotten a lot better. I've had some of the JBL stuff mentioned in the postings....like those models with bi-radial horns, etc. I think the new L100 sounds really good, and like I said it could fit the bill for a lot of systems, and doesn't have to have hundreds of watts per channel to play louder than most people will play them if they don't want to go deaf.
Back to the topic...I think my motivation for my first reply was pretty straight on....listen to the actual speaker, and then comment. If you cannot do that, then it sucks for all of us, because there are people who might be interested in that speaker. And that goes for any price point.
One last comment before everyone flames me: I stopped reading audiophile magazines 30 years ago, because I find them to be a waste of time. Amplifiers have gotten so good that to me the measurements are just another thing to argue about. I'm much more concerned with service after the sale, trying to support US businesses, and trying to buy from companies who will still be in business years from now. If someone else likes reading all those reviews, great.
NB; if you get down to Portland, go visit Aperion Audio. I got a tour of the place 2 years ago, and was impressed. They had some good sounding speakers, which they sell online. Kind of goes against my brick and mortar argument, but I don't know that we can stop the trend towards everything being on-line. Personally, I value service, and I don't go buy the thing on-line to save a few bucks after listening in a store. Call me old school.
Good luck.
D
Deleted member 5256
Guest
Got it. For our end, please remember that access to audio products has become very difficult with reduction of retail locations and explosion of brands. So people come and discuss things based on what information is available. Good that you like the speakers. Would have given more motivation for people to listen to if your post was not so grumpy! And I say this as someone that is usually grumpy about audio products.
Sorry about the grumpiness. I wasn't grumpy when I found the OP making a comment about the re-issue L100 speaker, because I wanted to hear what he thought. It was all the unrelated stuff that made me grumpy.
Case in point: I'm shopping for a NAS to use to store music on, and to back up my home office. I found some great, informative articles by actual users of the Synology units I was focused on. Then I found some concrete info from a guy who uses them, and QNAP. After watching numerous videos I'm leaning towards QNAP now, for my particular use. And carefully checking out how they stack up against Synology. I tried going to places like Best Buy, but it was a waste of time because they could not spend the time I needed to ask questions. I'm a sales pro...I get it. They are paid to sell as much as possible. So,my choice is going to be on-line. What I didn't see on those sites were unrelated comments about things that had no bearing on the topic at hand. Like what some 30-50 year old brand they owned had to do with a pair of new speakers. Like I said in my first post...create a new post for that!
Sorry if I offended people. That was not my intent.
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #49
Yeah...driving 3 hours each way just to audition some speakers? So 6 hours total driving, plus listening time? Call it 8 hours?
Maybe if I was retired.
I'm lucky if I can get 3 hours a week of dedicated listening with the speakers I already own.
On the other hand, I just spent 3 hours listening to Seattle Symphony performing Beethoven's 9th. If I have a solid chunk of 3+ hours I can devote to music outside the home, I'd much rather spend it listening to live music, and with my wife.
Lastly....anybody can say "I like these speakers."
I'm looking for objective evidence these are something worth bothering with, or at least something unique or different or better than just a marketing opportunity by JBL to cash in on retro-buying fads.
To me, they look like VW's 'New Beetle' (now discontinued).
I didn't say you were trying to impress anyone. If you want to tell someone that you liked, and bought, a pair of speakers on the basis of a listening test in a store, and you expect to be congratulated for that, you're in the wrong quadrant of the audio galaxy. There are other forums where you can easily find pats on the back for a purchase.
If you are suggesting that I'm of lesser means, my speakers cost a multiple of $4,000, and I've taken plenty of criticism here for that purchase, among others. I'm a millennial, and I've been very fortunate. Whatever issues I may have, envy is not among them.
With respect to your allegation that my mildly harsh post was obnoxious, here's what's obnoxious: joining a forum and in your first post criticizing a dozen folks more knowledgeable than you are because you believe that your subjective, "real world" listening impressions are more valuable than technical information (even if sometimes speculative). It might be entertaining to read in the pages of TAS or Stereophile that a reviewer found a speaker "captivating," but no one here cares about such uncorroborated impressions. They are infamously unreliable. Most are also uninformative. For example, I don't know what a captivating speaker sounds like.
So perhaps before you join a forum and tell a lot of very experienced, technically proficient folks that their posts are worthless, you should do a little reading, learning, and thinking first.
D
Deleted member 5256
Guest
Watchnerd: I'm with you. I get the limitations you find. If you don't have time to drive or fly somewhere, or it isn't worth the time or expense, then don't do it. Like you, I'd rather spend time with my wife than do many other things than many other people do. My wife listens to music with headphones, and tunes out the world while she works. I prefer a dedicated system.
Now we are getting to the real meat of the matter, and I think it supports my original response: you want objective evidence to support your buying decision. How can anyone, anywhere give you that? It is impossible. NO MATTER HOW MANY SPECIFICATIONS OR TESTS THEY PROVIDE, THE END RESULT IS YOU LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS. Doesn't matter if someone else likes them or not, Doesn't matter if they perform well in a particular environment, especially with equipment you don't likely own. And, you can simply never truly understand their motivation for doing any particular thing. Are they being paid to review it? Are they are fanboys? Are they just full of crap and don't know what they are talking about, and are just regurgitating something they read on the internet?
Personally, if I were you, and you want to invest in your stereo, I'd tried to get to one of the many events held around the country, like the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, Axpona, what-ever. Make a vacation about it, and take your wife. Fly or drive somewhere and listen to a dealer who has what you want. Vancouver has some good audio dealers. Minneapolis does too. Those are not far by air.
If you cannot do those things, or are not willing to, then how is ANYONE going to tell you anything meaningful? Some companies will allow you to do an in home audition and ship the stuff back if you don't like it. Magnepan, PS Audio, and others. I mention these items because just like speakers, they affect what you hear.
If you are into classical, then you should be looking for very dynamic, nuanced speakers. I thought my comments were on target, and addressed some of the OP's issues. There are thousands of pairs of speakers available, or if you prefer, you can build your own. But in the end, it has to sound good to you.
D
Deleted member 5256
Guest
Mr Argument: Too funny. You are a piece of work. You have no idea who I am, how much I know, and it is you who are trying to impress people. Who cares if you are successful? Who cares how much you paid for your speakers? I don't. I don't care to devolve this into a pissing match. Because there is no end to that. And, it means nothing.
I know what I know based on decades of experience listening to many, many systems at widely varying price levels. And, there is no way to objectively qualify any of it. What I dislike is when people do exactly what this example did...start out with a premise, and then go off tangent talking about unrelated stuff. And, when someone offers a comment on a real world listening event, and intends to actually purchase the item, they are somehow expected to offer up "proof".
If you think that can be found by reading comments about 30 year old, unrelated speakers, by all means, go ahead and accept that. I hope you enjoy your financial success in life, and find ways to help others.
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #53
Of course listening matters. I don't think anyone is saying it doesn't.
But....
No offense, but your subjective impressions of a speaker, or anyone else's, are of little to no use to me because I'm not you.
I've designed and built multiple pairs of speakers, practice amateur recording engineering, and have a degree in applied physics with a focus on signal processing. As a result, I actually have a pretty good sense of what kind of measurements correlate with what I subjectively value. For me, measurements are the penultimate step before listening evaluations....just as it is with most modern speaker designers these days.
Nobody serious designs entirely by ear, and for very good reasons (takes so long, our senses are easily fooled).
As for trade shows: I've been to RMAAF, AXPONA, Munich, and every time I find the venues to be pretty horrible, which just proves that a great speaker in an awful room will lose to an average speaker in a good room.
And the idea of pitching it to my wife as a vacation.....oh hell no is that going to fly. She's still nagging me to finish her museum bucket list; having been to MOMA, Tate Modern, Louvre, The Prado, she keeps asking me when we're going to get to The Hermitage.
No Art Institute of Chicago? You could combine that with AXPONA...
D
Deleted member 5256
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Watchnerd: Your first line is the whole point......my opinion means nothing to you because I have my ears, you have yours. And, I agree with everything you said. Those venues suck for quality. I go to see the equipment., and talk to people; Then I go find a dealer with the equipment, if I'm interested, and I listen to it. I travel a lot, so I can do this as a course of business. I've lived overseas too, and been to some of the largest audio shops in the world, like in Tokyo. I've built speakers too.
I also agree with your thoughts about the VW bug. I'm glad it is now discontinued.
I spoke with Andrew Jones at a show one time, and have owned and enjoyed speakers he designed. He is a charming, intelligent, and very talented designer. I cannot stand his new stuff with Elac. What can I say? I heard it, and thought it was artificially warm with overly accentuated mids, and bloated bass. Others love them. What can I say?
It sounds to me like you might be better served spending you time and money on live music, and you live in a great area for that. But, your budget is your business too, not mine.
In the Service, I worked with people who trained lasers and such on objects to measure how they reacted to various inputs. All mounted on top of precision ground granite multi-ton bases. I think B&W was the first to do that for speaker design. (laser interferometry?) B&W speakers don't trip my trigger though. Yes, I've owned some and sold them to move onto something else.
Now, I'll see if I can cancel my membership to this group. Shouldn't have opened a can of worms today.
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #57
If I cared at all about going to AXPONA, that might work, but been to Chicago several times and, nothing against it, but there is an opportunity cost vs other destinations on my bucket list.
But this exactly highlights the mega-point:
Back when there was a more robust audiophile dealer network, it was reasonably practical to tell those living in major metros to go audition in person.
The fact that we're even discussing 'auditioning while vacationing' shows just how bad the current situation is.
And just how many cities would I have to visit to hear what's worth hearing, especially if not in horrible trade show acoustics?
This method isn't scalable.
And why the proclamation to 'just go listen' is mostly impractical these days, and why the value and importance of objective measurements is so much higher.
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No he’s not a piece of work , he’s actually a extremely nice bloke who’s both humble, genuine and generous not to mention extremely hard working.
You can cut out these little rants , it’s not what we are about. You have no authority here to start dressing down my members like this so please amend this attitude or go elsewhere.
The Art Institute alone is worth the trip. Trust me on this, it stands with the finest in the world.
