• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

JBL HDI-3800 Floorstanding Speaker Review

OP
hardisj

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,602
Likes
12,064
Location
North Alabama
I've been out of town at an event all weekend and didn't have time to respond to the recent comments. So, I'll address them generally here.

I appreciate your feedback and concern about the accuracy of the LF measurements with complex summation of multiple woofers in a large sound field. I don't take any of it personally. I do, however, hate to see an entire test's discussion be narrowed down in to this one aspect rather than discussion of other aspects of the speaker's performance. It's not just this thread. It happens in others as well. I think that's a shame. Thus, I voiced my concern with it. Of course, it could simply be there is no other interest so the LF topic remains. That's fine.




As for what I can do about LF accuracy of large and/or complex sound fields:
  • With respect to placing the mic as far away from the DUT as possible, I have already added the r-axis extension to my measurement rig which pushed out my initial NFS measurement radius another 18-20 inches (ballpark; I don't remember the exact number off the top). I don't know if Amir has installed this extension on his setup or not (I know it comes with it; I don't know if he added it). Nor do I know that Amir has room for it. Nor do I know if he needs it. He has the z-axis extension which allows him to measure speakers vertically whereas I have to lay large ones on their side so if anyone here has the better chance at measuring tall speakers from a further radius then it is him. Those are things he can address - here or in another thread - if he wants to. IOW, I have reached the physical extent of my system. However, a large radius is certainly not needed for smaller, less complex speakers. Both Amir and I have shown that.
  • I will supplement all reviews of speakers of this nature with an additional ground plane measurement. I will also provide Klippel with this data in order to hopefully find some sort of understanding of the results and my measurement rig and room. I will be starting with providing a GP measurement of this exact speaker within the next few days. Luckily, I haven't sent it back yet.
  • I will do what I can outside of physical setup to improve this but as I have shown, the fitting and other spatial aspects are as good as they can be. IOW, I have shown full optimization within the physical constraints I have. I may simply be at the end of my rope here with the limits of what I can accommodate. Truthfully, however, I am happy I was even able to measure these larger speakers at all. Because going in to this I expected to be limited to bookshelf-sized speakers anyway. The fact that I am able to measure somewhat-large speakers with the NFS is great.

My hope is that between Amir and I we can capture the large majority of items that we (the community) would benefit from. Amir is busy with things other than just speaker testing. I am busy with my daily life (family first, job second, dogs third, testing fourth). Don't forget we also have @napilopez doing incredible work without a nearfield scanner. The audio community is getting mounds of data from all sorts of great sources (for free, no less). I just ask people to be realistic about expectations and timelines. Be patient. Be understanding. We will all benefit.

Thanks for the feedback and understanding.

- Erin
 
Last edited:

franspambot

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
711
Likes
1,594
I've been out of town at an event all weekend and didn't have time to respond to the recent comments. So, I'll address them generally here.

I appreciate your feedback and concern about the accuracy of the LF measurements with complex summation of multiple woofers in a large sound field. I don't take any of it personally. I do, however, hate to see an entire test's discussion be narrowed down in to this one aspect rather than discussion of other aspects of the speaker's performance. It's not just this thread. It happens in others as well. I think that's a shame. Thus, I voiced my concern with it. Of course, it could simply be there is no other interest so the LF topic remains. That's fine.

As for what I can do about LF accuracy of large and/or complex sound fields:
  • With respect to placing the mic away as far away from the DUT as possible, I have already added the r-axis extension to my measurement rig which pushed out my initial NFS measurement radius another 18-20 inches (ballpark; I don't remember the exact number off the top). I don't know if Amir has installed this extension on his setup or not (I know it comes with it; I don't know if he added it). Nor do I know that Amir has room for it. Nor do I know if he needs it. He has the z-axis extension which allows him to measure speakers vertically whereas I have to lay large ones on their side so if anyone here has the better chance at measuring tall speakers from a further radius then it is him. Those are things he can address - here or in another thread - if he wants to. IOW, I have reached the physical extent of my system. However, a large radius is certainly not needed for smaller, less complex speakers. Both Amir and I have shown that.
  • I will supplement all reviews of speakers of this nature with an additional ground plane measurement. I will also provide Klippel with this data in order to hopefully find some sort of understanding of the results and my measurement rig and room. I will be starting with providing a GP measurement of this exact speaker within the next few days. Luckily, I haven't sent it back yet.
  • I will do what I can outside of physical setup to improve this but as I have shown, the fitting and other spatial aspects are as good as they can be. IOW, I have shown full optimization within the physical constraints I have. I may simply be at the end of my rope here with the limits of what I can accommodate. Truthfully, however, I am happy I was even able to measure these larger speakers at all. Because going in to this I expected to be limited to bookshelf-sized speakers anyway. The fact that I am able to measure somewhat-large speakers with the NFS is great.

My hope is that between Amir and I we can capture the large majority of items that we (the community) would benefit from. Amir is busy with things other than just speaker testing. I am busy with my daily life (family first, job second, dogs third, testing fourth). Don't forget we also have @napilopez doing incredible work without a nearfield scanner. The audio community is getting mounds of data from all sorts of great sources. I just ask people to be realistic about expectations and timelines. Be patient. Be understanding. We will all benefit.

Thanks for the feedback and understanding.

- Erin
Great attitude shown here, Erin. While the nitpicking can be extremely aggravating to you poor, generous souls, I think that it is also one of the great things about this site. Sure, there are more than enough curmudgeons and know it all's on the site, but overall I really do think that people want to learn and do things the best way possible. The comments on this thread, at least, all come a good place. Your measurements are among the very, very best and they will only get better. That's something to be extremely proud of and please don't think that anyone here doesn't understand that or appreciate them.
 

CMB

Active Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
115
Likes
155
I have said it on different places (FB) already :
Thank you Erin for your incredible effort and for supplying us all (and that for free) with your measures and trustful review.
I was very looking forward for that one as it seemed a good match for my system.
Finally, I won't follow up on this speaker neither (I already had to dump the Klipsch because of you ;-)).
You made me save money again.
And it won't be because the LF measures :) but for all the other interesting points you raised during your review.

Please keep it up.
Claude
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,225
Likes
6,190
I've been out of town at an event all weekend and didn't have time to respond to the recent comments. So, I'll address them generally here.

I appreciate your feedback and concern about the accuracy of the LF measurements with complex summation of multiple woofers in a large sound field. I don't take any of it personally. I do, however, hate to see an entire test's discussion be narrowed down in to this one aspect rather than discussion of other aspects of the speaker's performance. It's not just this thread. It happens in others as well. I think that's a shame. Thus, I voiced my concern with it. Of course, it could simply be there is no other interest so the LF topic remains. That's fine.




As for what I can do about LF accuracy of large and/or complex sound fields:
  • With respect to placing the mic as far away from the DUT as possible, I have already added the r-axis extension to my measurement rig which pushed out my initial NFS measurement radius another 18-20 inches (ballpark; I don't remember the exact number off the top). I don't know if Amir has installed this extension on his setup or not (I know it comes with it; I don't know if he added it). Nor do I know that Amir has room for it. Nor do I know if he needs it. He has the z-axis extension which allows him to measure speakers vertically whereas I have to lay large ones on their side so if anyone here has the better chance at measuring tall speakers from a further radius then it is him. Those are things he can address - here or in another thread - if he wants to. IOW, I have reached the physical extent of my system. However, a large radius is certainly not needed for smaller, less complex speakers. Both Amir and I have shown that.
  • I will supplement all reviews of speakers of this nature with an additional ground plane measurement. I will also provide Klippel with this data in order to hopefully find some sort of understanding of the results and my measurement rig and room. I will be starting with providing a GP measurement of this exact speaker within the next few days. Luckily, I haven't sent it back yet.
  • I will do what I can outside of physical setup to improve this but as I have shown, the fitting and other spatial aspects are as good as they can be. IOW, I have shown full optimization within the physical constraints I have. I may simply be at the end of my rope here with the limits of what I can accommodate. Truthfully, however, I am happy I was even able to measure these larger speakers at all. Because going in to this I expected to be limited to bookshelf-sized speakers anyway. The fact that I am able to measure somewhat-large speakers with the NFS is great.

My hope is that between Amir and I we can capture the large majority of items that we (the community) would benefit from. Amir is busy with things other than just speaker testing. I am busy with my daily life (family first, job second, dogs third, testing fourth). Don't forget we also have @napilopez doing incredible work without a nearfield scanner. The audio community is getting mounds of data from all sorts of great sources (for free, no less). I just ask people to be realistic about expectations and timelines. Be patient. Be understanding. We will all benefit.

Thanks for the feedback and understanding.

- Erin

Awesome reply. Ground plane measurement should solve the issue. My hope is that if there is bass error, Klippel can find a way to correct it.

Sorry for not discussing other points of the review more. I guess I just didn't really have much to add, as I agreed with you 100%. I thought your point about imaging shift between the woofer and tweeter, and that you were able to show "why" by looking at the measurements, was very cool.
 
OP
hardisj

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,602
Likes
12,064
Location
North Alabama
... Since it is related to the current discussion ...

I measured the JBL HDI-4500 last week. I haven't posted the review yet because I haven't had time to. Given the recent discussion of concern over LF accuracy, I went outside and measured the ground plane response to compare it against the NFS-measured response.

Below you see the on-axis CTA-2034 response in black overlaid on top of the ground-plane measurement in teal. Nearly perfect match below 200Hz*. And, ironically, the HDI-4500 is the one that has been the most troublesome with fitting in the LF. I have literally measured that speaker 6 times to dial in the LF accuracy. Go figure, right?


1617241659485.png



*Keep in mind the GP and NFS measurements are expected to be different above a few hundred Hz because I didn't tilt the speaker down to be aimed directly at the mic for the GP test. The GP measurement was only for the low frequency.
 
Last edited:

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,225
Likes
6,190
... Since it is related to the current discussion ...

I measured the JBL HDI-4500 last week. I haven't posted the review yet because I haven't had time to. Given the recent discussion of concern over LF accuracy, I went outside and measured the ground plane response to compare it against the NFS-measured response.

Below you see the on-axis CTA-2034 response in black overlaid on top of the ground-plane measurement in teal. Nearly perfect match below 200Hz*. And, ironically, the HDI-4500 is the one that has been the most troublesome with fitting in the LF. I have literally measured that speaker 6 times to dial in the LF accuracy. Go figure, right?


View attachment 121380


*Keep in mind the GP and NFS measurements are expected to be different above a few hundred Hz because I didn't tilt the speaker down to be aimed directly at the mic for the GP test. The GP measurement was only for the low frequency.

Looks like the NFS just about nailed the extension of that one. Maybe something unique with the 3800 that gives it trouble? It seemed to do well with the 1600, too, comparing to JBL specs.
 

Mnyb

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
975
Likes
1,248
Location
Sweden, Västerås
Yes your review is very complete . So I don't have to much to ask .

One thing come to mind between this and a revel f206 what would one pick being approx 3 meters away from it in a room thats bit smaller than yours but open to adjacent parts of the house .
 
Last edited:

McFly

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
626
Likes
988
Location
NZ
Predicted In Room Response should add LF room gain. I mean, its a prediction of the sum of all direct and early reflections right? Why is it not adding the massive bass reflection?
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
561
Likes
900
Location
Chicago, IL
Maybe I'm in the minority but absolute accuracy in the bass frequency isn't important to me for a few reasons. First is we all know the room is the dominant factor in the bass and multiple subwoofers are all but required if we want deep accurate bass at multiple positions. What I've noticed with any speaker I've had in my room is they pretty much all behave how I would expect based on size of drivers, number of drivers, cabinet sized and whether they are sealed or ported. Most people know their listening levels and should know what size and/or how many woofers they require to hit that SPL for their room size and listening distance.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,045
Likes
4,134
Location
France
Predicted In Room Response should add LF room gain. I mean, its a prediction of the sum of all direct and early reflections right? Why is it not adding the massive bass reflection?
There are no bass "reflections" as in "specular reflection". Everything is modal under the Schroeder frequency.
 

McFly

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
626
Likes
988
Location
NZ
I see, but what are your thoughts on room gain being added to the EIRR? Using an average room size? One must assume the early reflections curve is obtained from an "average" room? A speaker that has a nice EIRR curve is going to sound pretty different outdoors
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,045
Likes
4,134
Location
France
I see, but what are your thoughts on room gain being added to the EIRR? Using an average room size? One must assume the early reflections curve is obtained from an "average" room? A speaker that has a nice EIRR curve is going to sound pretty different outdoors
But what would be the default room size, position of the loudspeaker and the listener in the room? Sounds more like a room simulator than a measurement tool, to be honest.
Basically, you can still appreciate the smoothness of the PIR, even if it is quite dependant on room size, absorption rate and listening distance as those parameters won't bring the same unpredictable chaos as modes.

Would be nice to have such an interactive simulator (where you can move the various actors and stipulate complex room shapes) using Klippel data as input to compute complex boundary gain and modes. Wonder what Genelec used to develop the W371A, for example.
 
Last edited:

ctrl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 24, 2020
Messages
1,069
Likes
3,453
Location
.de, DE, DEU
And, ironically, the HDI-4500 is the one that has been the most troublesome with fitting in the LF. I have literally measured that speaker 6 times to dial in the LF accuracy. Go figure, right?
Now that looks excellent! There is nothing more that can be improved.
This speaker size and complexity doesn't seem to be a problem for the NFS yet.

Maybe I'm in the minority but absolute accuracy in the bass frequency isn't important to me for a few reasons.
For the overall evaluation of the loudspeaker, the correct low cutoff frequency is very important.
Thus, a deep low cutoff frequency and low harmonic distortion can only be achieved with a lot of effort.
Already 5-10Hz difference at the f3 frequency are enormously costly in terms of material use, if at the same time the harmonic distortion shall not increase.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
561
Likes
900
Location
Chicago, IL
For the overall evaluation of the loudspeaker, the correct low cutoff frequency is very important.
Thus, a deep low cutoff frequency and low harmonic distortion can only be achieved with a lot of effort.
Already 5-10Hz difference at the f3 frequency are enormously costly in terms of material use, if at the same time the harmonic distortion shall not increase.

It's only important if you're not using subs but anyone who is serious about good bass will be using subs so really all that is important is that a speaker can play loud enough for you with whatever crossover you choose, usually 80hz, that isn't a difficult thing for most speakers. I would also disagree that it takes a lot of effort, it's really just physics, larger and/or multiple drivers are what it takes and I haven't seen any speaker really diverge from that.
 
OP
hardisj

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,602
Likes
12,064
Location
North Alabama
I have updated my reviews with a linearity metric and a statement regarding sensitivity/linearity to help people more easily see. I was doing this before but forgot to include this in my latest reviews.

The mean SPL on-axis is 88.99 dB (300Hz to 3kHz). Response linearity is -3.66/+2.62 dB (80Hz to 16kHz).

JBL%20HDI-3800%20FR_Linearity.png
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,225
Likes
6,190
I have updated my reviews with a linearity metric and a statement regarding sensitivity/linearity to help people more easily see. I was doing this before but forgot to include this in my latest reviews.

The mean SPL on-axis is 88.99 dB (300Hz to 3kHz). Response linearity is -3.66/+2.62 dB (80Hz to 16kHz).

JBL%20HDI-3800%20FR_Linearity.png

Thanks for the update.

Were you able to do a ground plane measurement for this speaker to test the bass extension? If not, nbd.
 
Top Bottom