JBL HDI-3600 Speaker Review

[Sancus]

We all have read that relieving the bass frequencies results in a bit more max SPL, the question though is this true. Can the bookshelf woofer play a 200Hz note louder when it isn’t also playing a 40Hz note? I don’t recall ever seeing anyone test this.

Certainly it is true for actives that automatically compress low bass at higher SPLs, like Neumanns and Genelecs, but it's a good question whether or not it works that way for passives. I have no idea tbh. Sounds like something that'd be worth testing, and not that hard to test...

 

[Sal1950]

We all have read that relieving the bass frequencies results in a bit more max SPL, the question though is this true. Can the bookshelf woofer play a 200Hz note louder when it isn’t also playing a 40Hz note? I don’t recall ever seeing anyone test this.

Never tested it, but just seems if a woofer was being pressed to the point of cone distortion or bottoming by a 40Hz tone, it would negatively impact any other tones being played by the same driver? Excursion for X Hz gets more demanding as the freq goes lower for a desired spl.

 

[tuga]

First off thanks for the work you have done with processing the calculations and making them accessible.

I was wondering if you could expand on the idea that standmounts with subs are a better choice for music than a floor stander from the same series.

There is one school of thought that the standmount/sub setup is the most cost effective. The other is a 6" mid/low driver is very limiting even when relieved of low frequencies with bass management.

Since the limiting factor is the SPL level at which the mid/low driver distorts, I wonder if the standmounts with subs are going to work in all but very large rooms with listeners who like it really loud.

You can get 3-way standmounts and complement them with subwoofers.

 

[amirm]

Never tested it, but just seems if a woofer was being pressed to the point of cone distortion or bottoming by a 40Hz tone, it would negatively impact any other tones being played by the same driver?

The bottoming out sounds so bad that it doesn't matter what else is playing.

 

[Ron Texas]

The bottoming out sounds so bad that it doesn't matter what else is playing.

I recall in a post you mentioned a 6" mid/low will play louder before bottoming out than a 5". That makes sense. Is it correct to say a 100 hz 4th order high pass filter will do a lot to prevent bottoming out as this is (I believe) caused by frequencies lower than 100Hz (usually).

 

[MZKM]

The only thing I can say with certainty is the opening tracks on the album "The Haunted Man" cause very large excursions of the driver on my LS50's unless they are fed with a 24 db/octave high pass filter of 90 hz or higher. It's easy to confirm as the difference can be seen. It doesn't prove a 200 hz note can be played louder. Fairly high SPL's can be reached as the room is only 14x18x8' plus a small hallway which can be closed off.

I thought the difference in volume settings for movies vs music, at least in JRiver, is due to how JRiver does the mixdown from 5.1 to stereo.

Oh, and here’s another aspect, do surround sound receivers with crossovers engaged supply more wattage above the crossover region? If the signal is just getting attenuated and the amps are still gaining the same but with just a lower input signal level in the bass, I would think not.

@Amirm, the next time you test a surround receiver, can you also test the wattage when a 80Hz crossover is engaged?

 

[HammerSandwich]

Never tested it, but just seems if a woofer was being pressed to the point of cone distortion or bottoming by a 40Hz tone, it would negatively impact any other tones being played by the same driver? Excursion for X Hz gets more demanding as the freq goes lower for a desired spl.

Hificompass tested IMD at different excursions in their Purifi PTT6 review (a few other 6s included). The difference is clearly measurable.

I suspect that removing a bunch of bass also keeps the woofer's coil significantly cooler, reducing compression, etc.

I recall in a post you mentioned a 6" mid/low will play louder before bottoming out than a 5". That makes sense. Is it correct to say a 100 hz 4th order high pass filter will do a lot to prevent bottoming out as this is (I believe) caused by frequencies lower than 100Hz (usually).

Yes. At a given frequency, +6dB requires double the excursion. At a given SPL, dropping frequency in half (1 octave) quadruples excursion. IOW, roll off an octave higher, and you gain 12dB of potential output.

 

[Ron Texas]

Hificompass tested IMD at different excursions in their Purifi PTT6 review (a few other 6s included). The difference is clearly measurable.

I suspect that removing a bunch of bass also keeps the woofer's coil significantly cooler, reducing compression, etc.


Yes. At a given frequency, +6dB requires double the excursion. At a given SPL, dropping frequency in half (1 octave) quadruples excursion. IOW, roll off an octave higher, and you gain 12dB of potential output.

A 5" mid/low doesn't have a lot of maximum excursion to start with. Lately, I'm not sure if I need some advice from the knowledgeable around here, or to see a psychiatrist. This pandemic thing is driving me nuts. Thank goodness for music.

 

[Jon AA]

Oh, and here’s another aspect, do surround sound receivers with crossovers engaged supply more wattage above the crossover region?

I believe this is the case in a round about way. The amps in a receiver generally draw power from a common power supply (which is typically not large enough to supply all channels full power at the same time). If the left and right are run full range, those amps are going to draw more power at the same volume level and will likely run into their limits at a lower volume level. Less sensitive speakers (such that the gain on those amps is at a higher setting for a given volume level) will cause the same thing.

 

[HammerSandwich]

The amps in a receiver generally draw power from a common power supply (which is typically not large enough to supply all channels full power at the same time).

Right on. The tests I've seen show a ~1-2dB difference between 2- & 5-channels driven, so not a huge change.

 

[BYRTT]

...Is it correct to say a 100 hz 4th order high pass filter will do a lot to prevent bottoming out as this is (I believe) caused by frequencies lower than 100Hz (usually).

In simulation software high passed looks help a ton or more ...

 

[GelbeMusik]

Is it true, that these cost about 4k? There is indication of rattle at 400/500Hz, in that all harmonics show a spike. But let's assume it is the test set-up, somehow. Honestly, alone from the looks I would refrain form taking these into consideration. I'm positively not a designer. Yet I'm more fond of the subtstantial look, feel and first of all performance of ancient designs. At the given price point, for me personally, there are too many compromises.

How loud it gets? Depends on the quality. There should be some criterion, which unavoidable distortion of whatever breed limits "loud". "Bottoming" appears as quite coarse of a limit. It is literally too hard, because it may disrupt the regular use of the speaker forever.

 

[amirm]

@Amirm, the next time you test a surround receiver, can you also test the wattage when a 80Hz crossover is engaged?

The normal power measurement is at 1 kHz so it makes no difference if the crossover is on or not. The power vs frequency sweep I run shows that information. In general though, with real life content, the amount of energy in low frequencies is much higher than higher frequencies.

 

[jhaider]

Since the limiting factor is the SPL level at which the mid/low driver distorts, I wonder if the standmounts with subs are going to work in all but very large rooms with listeners who like it really loud.

To put some numbers to it, based on monitors measured in Sound und Recording, a high quality 6.5"-7" woofer can exceed 100dB at 120Hz before hitting their 3% THD broadband "max SPL" threshold, and the same at 80Hz before hitting their 10% THD "bass SPL" threshold. See, e.g., Genelec M040, Studiomontior Special PDF, at 135 (I have a good idea of the woofer used in that speaker); APS IO Soft Dome, Id. at 258 (text identifies the woofer as from Seas).

We all have read that relieving the bass frequencies results in a bit more max SPL, the question though is this true. Can the bookshelf woofer play a 200Hz note louder when it isn’t also playing a 40Hz note? I don’t recall ever seeing anyone test this.

From a theoretical standpoint, maybe. The reason is the total excursion on the woofer is less.

From a practical standpoint, the sat-subs system can get louder simply because there's more speaker playing the frequency range that is usually first to go blatt.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

- and my 16 inch Altecs plus 500Hz CD horns. Not likely to be Harman-curve approved - no problem, here. Preference.

I agree with your preference. Sometimes I like the dynamic speakers you prefer. Other times a lock in your seat Maggie. Overall, I always come back to dynamic.

 

[Sal1950]

and my 16 inch Altecs plus 500Hz CD horns. Not likely to be Harman-curve approved

Exactly what a good DRC system was made for.

 

[dinglehoser]

I know I said I'd post some in-room measurements, but ... life. It'll be a while longer before I get around to generating ASR-worthy data. But in the meantime, here's a minimalist set of low-Q PEQ filters to neutralize some of the 3600's response pecadilloes. The filter at 677Hz takes care of the minor resonance peak there; 1131Hz filter accounts for the directivity errors; 1990Hz filter fixes the crossover dip; and the 8622Hz+10300Hz filters together flatten the waveguide response artifacts (other than the 16k+ peaking). You'll probably have to play with the gains to account for your room and setup, particularly for the 1131Hz filter. The net effect is pretty subtle, but I'm pretty sure I could ABX it.

Filter  6: ON  PK       Fc   677.0 Hz  Gain  -1.50 dB  Q  5.000
Filter  7: ON  PK       Fc    1131 Hz  Gain  -1.30 dB  Q  3.000
Filter  8: ON  PK       Fc    1990 Hz  Gain   1.90 dB  Q  5.000
Filter  9: ON  PK       Fc    8622 Hz  Gain  -1.90 dB  Q  4.000
Filter 10: ON  PK       Fc   10300 Hz  Gain   2.00 dB  Q  4.000

 

[Bear123]

Despite the very good measurements and accompanying subjective reviews of most(all?) of the Revel/JBL/Harman speakers, Amir is getting the cold shoulder. I wonder if it has anything to do with Arcam getting their teeth kicked in due to the abysmal performance. If your boss(Harman) sells an expensive, lousy product(Arcam) that is getting trashed, I guess your not allowed be friends with the review site(ASR) that sheds a good light on your own product(Revel/JBL).

 

[Sal1950]

Got my new speaker system delivered on Tues night and have been spending the last few days unboxing and setting things up. I had initially brought in a pair of HDI-1600s but decided to go with something that would have some stronger full range dynamics. I returned the pair of 1600s for 4 HDI-3600 and the HDI-4500 center channel. IMHO the system sounds amazing, too bad I can't hang 4 more from the ceiling for Atmos but I'm afraid the structure would never hold it. (nor my wallet LOL) As soon as I get things more settled I'll do a full update of my system on my personal systems thread and give a heads-up on this thread.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sals-system.614/
Just a teaser,

 

[VintageFlanker]

HDI-3800 TOTL model had just been measured by James Larson (Audioholics):

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/jbl-hdi-3800/conclusion