You do realize you are responding to one of the top crossover designers there is??Edit .. I have a pair of modded speakers he worked on.. He kinda knows what he's doing..You will be surprised how bad dispersion will be when you have two drivers at two wavelength apart at the crossover point.
Speaker design is not this simple.
IMHO, A170 sounds much better than A180 side by side. A180 is too bright.Any observations on distortion and sound quality on the A170?
At the same time I don’t see a reason why it can’t sound much better (at least as good as A170). I’m very curious about a crossover mod from experts in this area.First impression was that of piercing highs, an effect that would not go away.
I'd like to see Dennis's mod on the klippel...Well, if you all keep tabs on sales on the other A series models, I am game in buying and testing the others.
I own these and I'm very interested in what you come up with here for a revised crossover.I worked up a revised crossover for the 180 last night and cobbled the board together today. I jettisoned the 2.5 architecture, which requires a lot more components that JBL could have afforded to provide in this economy-level speaker. A properly done 2.5 would have a small advantage in vertical dispersion linearity, since interference between the two drivers would be reduced due to the lower crossover point of the bottom woofer. But I don't see any other advantage, and the circuit they used produced a huge THD-inducing peak in the bottom woofer. By running both woofers up to the 2 kHz crossover point, it's possible to trap out any woofer peaks with a single lrc network. I'll probably diddle with this after I listen carefully, but the brightness is gone and so is the distortion. What used to be around 3% THD@90 dB a little above 1 kHz is now .3%. Here's the mod, followed by the stock. The tweeter was disconnected when I measured the stock because I was trying to find the source of the distortion (which was the woofer).
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Awesome! Please share the crossover mod when you’re done with itI worked up a revised crossover for the 180 last night and cobbled the board together today. I jettisoned the 2.5 architecture, which requires a lot more components that JBL could have afforded to provide in this economy-level speaker. A properly done 2.5 would have a small advantage in vertical dispersion linearity, since interference between the two drivers would be reduced due to the lower crossover point of the bottom woofer. But I don't see any other advantage, and the circuit they used produced a huge THD-inducing peak in the bottom woofer. By running both woofers up to the 2 kHz crossover point, it's possible to trap out any woofer peaks with a single lrc network. I'll probably diddle with this after I listen carefully, but the brightness is gone and so is the distortion. What used to be around 3% THD@90 dB a little above 1 kHz is now .3%. Here's the mod, followed by the stock. The tweeter was disconnected when I measured the stock because I was trying to find the source of the distortion (which was the woofer).
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The A170 sounds fine to me. John Atkinson did measure a rising high end from 6K.IMHO, A170 sounds much better than A180 side by side. A180 is too bright.
I’ll quote @amirm:
At the same time I don’t see a reason why it can sound much better (better than A170). I’m very curious about a crossover mod from experts in this area.
Sure, could do that too.I'd like to see Dennis's mod on the klippel...
Inside JBL Studio A180 - crossover filter photos:
update - also attached service manualView attachment 212771
That is on just one of the woofers, the bottom one, which compensates for the baffle step. The other one is directly connected and this is why you have all those anomalies in FR in the so called “war zone.”
I'm not sure but I think the 190's are just as bad as the 180's. I was A/B'ing one of each side by side earlier but I just sent the 180's back and have the other 190 out of it's box to break in and set up as a stereo pair for some listening later. Perhaps the 190's are a tiny bit mellower.Just purchased the 190’s and haven’t had a chance to listen to them yet. Will provide my subjective opinion when I get around to them
I was just on vacation, so I just got back. About to get it rolling by the weekend. Any suggestions on how to properly do a in room frequency response without it being super expensive. Figure that's the only way to create a legit EQ profile unless one already exists or simply to see how the speakers act. Clearly not a klippel but ehI'm not sure but I think the 190's are just as bad as the 180's. I was A/B'ing one of each side by side earlier but I just sent the 180's back and have the other 190 out of it's box to break in and set up as a stereo pair for some listening later. Perhaps the 190's are a tiny bit mellower.
I mentioned that vertical dispersion won't be as smooth as with a 2.5, but vertical dispersion isn't nearly as important as smooth horizontal dispersion, which is excellent on both the stock and my modded version. I've been doing this professionally for over 20 years and have a pretty good handle on the complexities of crossover design. In this case, I had to go with what I was given in terms of driver layout. The object of the exercise is to provide a fairly inexpensive upgrade for the 180's should they go on sale again, not to design the best of all possible crossovers for this speaker.You will be surprised how bad dispersion will be when you have two drivers at two wavelength apart at the crossover point.
Speaker design is not this simple.
As others have pointed out, the listed schematic is for a different speaker--one that doesn't use a 2.5 architecture. The big inductor filters both woofers.That is on just one of the woofers, the bottom one, which compensates for the baffle step. The other one is directly connected and this is why you have all those anomalies in FR in the so called “war zone.”
That was kind of my point, the idea ( from what i know from you and others ) is about taking a decent design and making it better within budgetary constraints... I hope the poster didn't take my response personally..I mentioned that vertical dispersion won't be as smooth as with a 2.5, but vertical dispersion isn't nearly as important as smooth horizontal dispersion, which is excellent on both the stock and my modded version. I've been doing this professionally for over 20 years and have a pretty good handle on the complexities of crossover design. In this case, I had to go with what I was given in terms of driver layout. The object of the exercise is to provide a fairly inexpensive upgrade for the 180's should they go on sale again, not to design the best of all possible crossovers for this speaker.
Part of it may be coming from a recent quirky sale on some JBL models like these. A few AVS members purchased multiples during this feeding frenzy.Well, if you all keep tabs on sales on the other A series models, I am game in buying and testing the others.
There is no disrespect but no human had so far managed to change the laws of physics. There is a reason why there is always a single midrange driver, hence running two drivers at 2kHz will cause issues which will be audible.You do realize you are responding to one of the top crossover designers there is??Edit .. I have a pair of modded speakers he worked on.. He kinda knows what he's doing..