JBL 705P Studio Monitor Review

[Sancus]

I don't really understand the "dynamics" argument for speakers. What does this even mean in real, measurable terms? The maximum dynamic range of just about any music I'm aware of is 30db, and even that's only present in a handful of strange outlier albums, nearly everything is less than 20db. If your speaker can measurably play that loudness range without significant distortion, then you're done with SPL requirements as far as I understand and there's nothing more to think about.

Certainly, if your listening distances are longer(3-5m+) and you like to listen really loud(say 90db average, which is a level that will likely cause hearing damage over time), none of the Genelecs minus maybe the 8361A will get loud enough for you. But that's just knowing your basic requirements.

I can't see any reason why you would want to use any of the main monitors at 2-3m distances with more reasonable listening levels. Maybe if you just want the narrower dispersions, I suppose, but most don't consider that necessarily "better", just personal choice.

 

[Frank Dernie]

The maximum dynamic range of just about any music I'm aware of is 30db, and even that's only present in a handful of strange outlier albums

All symphonies, certainly classical and later ones have dynamic range of more than 30dB.
I suppose they may be considered "strange outlier albums" by some but they are amongst my most listened to music.
It just goes to show that one's ideals may considerably differ depending on the type of music one listens to.
People who play film tracks and electronic music will require more bass.
People who play classical music require more dynamic range.
Some people hugely value some sort of spatial impression created by their system, from artificial due to lateral sound reflections (or their absence) in stereo or much more real, requiring a surround sound speaker system and suitably recorded source.

 

[Sancus]

All symphonies, certainly classical and later ones have dynamic range of more than 30dB.
I suppose they may be considered "strange outlier albums" by some but they are amongst my most listened to music.

Do you have a source for that? The best data I know of for DR ranges is this site, and it has plenty of classical on it, nearly all of which is below 25.

E: Though I feel like this is a self-limiting issue as I can't imagine listening to anything with DR >30 at high SPLs, you'd go deaf very quickly during the loudest passages...

 

[q3cpma]

I also like the Devialet Phantom Reactor, Kali IN-8, and Elac Navis, though they all have deal breaking issues. I've even recommended the JBL LSR 308 to people when they are on sale.

If I come off like a shill or fanboy justifying a purchase, consider a few things:

1. NOBODY that I know is invested enough to shop around for an entire year, including returning several things that aren't good enough instead of justifying purchases.

2. Genelec admits the one true shortcoming of a coincident speaker: they aren't used in their main monitors because of SPL issues. None of us here are talking about those, thus none of the companies have a legitimate excuse not to get great vertical dispersion.

3. Similar to above: I care about vertical dispersion, many haven't heard something that sounds noticeably more balanced vertically, so they don't know if they'd prefer it, see number 1 again, and number 4:

4: I'm a maximizer looking for the optimum thing within reason to me... For others, that's quite unreasonable. For example, shoe shopping is trying on or buying and returning nearly ten thousand dollars worth of shoes from different companies. Shirts are purchased after I've tried on at least fifty others. NOBODY else I've heard of ever does that.

If someone isn't as picky, there are excellent choices for them. If they are as selective and hell bent on not justifying purchases, and have tried multiple speakers in multiple rooms in their house, aren't afraid to return things, and value something ideal (Ideal sound quality, not loudness. Someone who would select an OLED because it has the best picture quality, not for brightness,) then I'd love to see what they landed on.

As arrogant as it sounds, there are maybe three people I know of who have more experience, plus avoid justifying purchases, plus regularly dish out critiques where it's deserved, plus confront typical or manufacture promoted false facts or bad traditions.

(Examples are things like "Devialet makes lifestyle speakers, therefore they cannot sound as good or accurate as my studio monitors," or, "coaxial drivers have issues with the frequency response because an ever-changing wave guy this presented to the Tweeter," or, "all of our speakers are shaped like boxes, and that's okay because it doesn't really impact the sound, and sound is subjective anyway."

Open to learning about issues with my current speakers, I'll concede that they do have volume limitations which I'm content with.

Anyone else with the same information, experience, and desire for extension and accuracy, would make the same choice if selecting for fidelity in almost every case.

Calm down, I did say that they deserve that much fervour; I myself think Genelec is the best brand in business, with maybe ME Geithain as the dark horse with not enough attention.
It's just that your implying that the 8260 is better than the 8341A or 8351B with subs isn't backed by anything other than marginally better linearity, which is a bit misleading, because Genelec can be inaccurate with this spec: Princeton measured the 8030A as better than their spec, for example.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Do you have a source for that? The best data I know of for DR ranges is this site, and it has plenty of classical on it, nearly all of which is below 25.

E: Though I feel like this is a self-limiting issue as I can't imagine listening to anything with DR >30 at high SPLs, you'd go deaf very quickly during the loudest passages...

I don't know how these are measured and what the standard deviations are.
I just look at my sound level meter whilst listening, at both concerts and at home. (not continuously, that would be odd just when curious about it in music I know)
There will be occasional peaks at 115dB even when the "normal" level is around 80 dB and the quiet bits drop almost to 40dB.
Listening at mainly 80dB means my hearing won't be damaged. Having a system which can reproduce the 115dB peaks makes the experience of listening at home much more enjoyable.
If I set my preamp to my normal listening levels on rock music I need to set it 10-15dB higher to get the same average loudness on good classical recordings but it does mean the peaks are much louder, though rarely for long.

 

[Absolute]

How does thermal compression factor in in this equation? Most speakers are around their limits at 105-115 dB (at best) and severly lacking in both the top and bottom end regarding the peak spl capability.
But since most speakers are small toddlers with small drivers and voice coils that heats up, how can we expect the speakers to perform after a good while? This is a serious question and not a satirical one

 

[QMuse]

How does thermal compression factor in in this equation?

Well, for a start coil resistance will raise with temperature which will result in lower current for a given voltage which will result in lower EMS force on the membrane from the magnet.

 

[stevenswall]

Calm down, I did say that they deserve that much fervour; I myself think Genelec is the best brand in business, with maybe ME Geithain as the dark horse with not enough attention.
It's just that your implying that the 8260 is better than the 8341A or 8351B with subs isn't backed by anything other than marginally better linearity, which is a bit misleading, because Genelec can be inaccurate with this spec: Princeton measured the 8030A as better than their spec, for example.

I was more taking issue with the idea of fanboyism/not wanting to learn. I wish someone essentially said "here is data on why for X, Y, and Z, all other driver technologies are trash compared to the compression driver JBL uses." Then I'd learn something.

Since every speaker increases its score when the ideal sub is added, and since IIRC the baffle on the 8260 controls dispersion better than all but the 8351 and 8361, then the 8260 should score higher than the 8341 probably somewhere between or close the 8341+Sub, which would be by far the highest score for any single speaker unit.

JBL should know this, and if they do, hopefully there would be a speaker that has increased bass extension for its size, and since many use them for home theater and don't have ceiling treatment, and people might be lounging on the floor, standing up, or at different heights, make one with a coaxial driver. I should call Genelec and ask how much the part is to replace their coax. Sounds like most here think the price of the 708 is really fair, so for and extra $200 lets say, I think people would buy something that goes lower and has even vertical dispersion.

If someone has subs maybe they'd pick the current one, but I think in most cases getting good bass in the 20-30hz region at a bit lower peak volume would sway most people.

 

[Frank Dernie]

How does thermal compression factor in in this equation? Most speakers are around their limits at 105-115 dB (at best) and severly lacking in both the top and bottom end regarding the peak spl capability.
But since most speakers are small toddlers with small drivers and voice coils that heats up, how can we expect the speakers to perform after a good while? This is a serious question and not a satirical one

I have 2 pairs of speakers with small drive units, KEF LS50 and Harbeth P3ES and both are in storage. The speakers I listen to are either big 3-ways, horns or Devialet Phantoms. Only the Devialets have dynamic compression and then only in the bass and I can't say I have ever noticed it as a problem but in fact I usually simply listen to big efficient 3-ways with powerful amps so no problems being loud enough.
I am not more than one or two of the speakers measured here so far would be any use to me.

 

[LDKTA]

Dynamics are important, but I haven't seen evidence of speakers doing a significant amount of dynamic range compression relative to each other. Do you know of a source that would show what speakers are more dynamic? Seems like they more or less scale with input power: Double the power, get +3dB. If there are speakers with a curve where you for example double the power and get +3dB, double it again and only get 1dB, and doubling it again only gets you .1dB (exponentially compressing) then I'd really want to know.

If something isn't audible to someone, it probably is, they just need to be taught to identify it: Hiss, port chuffing, vertical dispersion differences as they move. If they are physically incapable of hearing it, don't stress. If they think it's within acceptable limits, no problem either... Just acknowledge when another company solves the problem. (Like I'd give kudos to someone who made a $10k speaker pair accurate from 20hz to 20khz within 1dB that could go up to 146dB.)

How do you define perfect? For me, an OLED TV color calibrated and brightness adjusted so that it can display a color corrected photo of my window at night, without me telling that my window was replaced by a TV, is perfect, because it's transparent. To me, because the Genelec's play down to around the human ears ability to hear, and as high as the human ear can hear, with 1dB of deviation or less, it's transparent/perfect to my human ears and I can now focus on room treatment and other things.

Common themes in your text: For me, to me


You may like to delve into preference-based arguments that lead no where, but I do not. What is the purpose of arguing ones preferences?


No, I do not know of a source that would show what loudspeakers are more dynamic. Short term dynamic compression ≠ power compression — Utilizing the DAAS, one can also measure the dynamic response in loudspeakers. I don’t believe SPL to be the only thing that is relevant here, but as you may have noticed, those loudspeakers capable of such dynamics (like the JBL M2) do have very high SPL capabilities. Dynamic headroom comes to mind. While this may not be important TO YOU, it is important to many other people like myself (though, this isn’t about me). I’m pretty certain you were part of the conversation where someone in this forum asked “How do we measure dynamics,” and JJ chimed in. A few sources in case you’ve yet to watch and listen to them:

HEDD Mains Tower

James Johnston - What is Dynamic Range?

James Johnston - What is "Microdynamics"?

“If something isn’t audible to someone, it probably is, they just need to be taught to identify it: Hiss, port chuffing, vertical dispersion differences as they move. If they are physically incapable of hearing it, don’t stress.” This is something I’ve mentioned to you in regards to residual noise in active and powered studio monitors. “If they think it’s within acceptable limits, no problem either…” Exactly. Back to preferences. “Just acknowledge when another company solves the problem.” When have I not acknowledged Genelec for solving problems or developing the phenomenal loudspeakers they do? You will fail here. Why on Earth do you think I told you to buy Genelec’s? Particularly, the 8260A that I am very familiar with. Seriously. In this very forum, I’ve spoken of my admiration for the company and in this very thread, I may have even mentioned that I love Genelec loudspeakers (likely multiple times). Genelec receives kudos daily and you will never hear me saying anything bad about any product from the company. My validation or anyone else’s for that matter is of no importance when it comes to the level of performance Genelec has been able to achieve in their loudspeakers. Do you not think I've considered Genelec's in the past? I literally chose the 708s over Genelec's because I prefer them. In a few months time, I will have M2s. Back to your initial quote of audibility. When you hear and feel the sheer dynamics (or for better words, “power”) of a loudspeaker like the JBL M2, you cannot “unhear” it. I understand that you don’t listen to your system loudly. Others do. Whether it is for multichannel/HT purposes or dedicated two channel stereo listening. Interestingly enough, I was tagged in some nonsense on a Facebook group about an experience Amir had with highly dynamic loudspeakers, where he attempted to replicate the sound in his own listening room and was unable to (despite have tons of power on tap being delivered to a pair of Revel Salon2’s). This is what I am getting at.

“How do you define perfect?” What is the definition of perfect. Flawless. Without fault. Find me something in this world that is truly perfect. Perfection does not exist. We can only aspire to develop something (anything) that is perfect. OLED, as excellent as it is, is not perfect — I’d go as far as to say, it is near perfect though. Maybe you should buy a professional reference monitor (particularly, an OLED reference monitor). By the way, my 708s are capable of doing the same, granted I use a subwoofer (soon to be subwoofers) as I’d use in any and every system. And? My room is already treated. Xilica XP has done it’s job well. You aren’t exactly unique in this situation. We are talking about splitting hairs and personal preference. There is nothing wrong with obsession and seeking perfection (unless there really is something wrong with you) but do not pretend that Genelec is perfect. They are not.

 

[LDKTA]

Could you please give an example where a coincident driver is inherently flawed? This is the only name calling I've experienced so far, and I get you're frustrated, but if you have a drawback I'd like to consider it.

Not inherent drawbacks:
-Air gap and ridges causing diffraction issues are solved by Genelec.
-Too much change in the waveguide presented to the tweeter is solved by Genelec, KEF, and others that make 3-ways.
-Can't go loud enough is not an excuse unless it's equivalent to a Genelec main monitor or louder than than a Genelec 8361
-Not able to be engineered to achieve accuracy is solved again by Genelec which seems to be as accurate as the M2, perhaps moreso with extension.

I'm sure other engineers and project managers *think* about it, but unfortunately not enough to have it reflected in their actions when trying to make a $10,000+ pair of speakers.

Definitely willing to concede that the compression driver and waveguide in an M2 or 708 is genius and superior/not lazy/not outdated for most uses at all if someone can demonstate:

-It has less dynamic compression and this is audible.
-It's more accurate across a wider range.
-It has less ringing and this is audible.
-It has less distortion and this is audible.

I'm sure it probably goes louder with less distortion, but that's where our values would differ: I don't value volume past a certain point, and distortion is low enough that it's not a problem to be solved like the glaring issues of vertical dispersion and soundstage consistency. Size too I suppose it helps with, but that's minor.

Oh, and I concede that for many, comparing used things to new isn't ideal, and they'd worry about not having a warranty. Valid concern.

I apologize for calling you any names if I did… Yes, this is rather frustrating. Are you serious? Find me a transducer that is perfect. Inherently flawed in design. Yes, Genelec, KEF, TAD, etc. has solved the problems that are inherent in coaxials. Other companies, like JBL, have done the same. The best loudspeaker designers minimize tradeoffs to the pint of little to no concern. That does not mean those flaws do not exist. They’ve been minimized to the point of little to no importance due to audibility. Doppler distortion, or frequency modulation distortion being one of them. When it comes to concentric drivers, there is also another form of amplitude modulation distortion (aside from the motor) — shift in frequency response of the tweeter due to the change in cone position. Not to mention, the change in the shape of the surround. What is the “fix?” The only way to minimize this is to use a concentric driver in a three-way loudspeaker. In other words, other issues on top of the “not inherent drawbacks” (sarcasm - they are inherent flaws that were minimized — There is a reason Genelec doesn’t use the concentric drivers in their main monitors and I wouldn’t take a pair of “The Ones” over any of them) you’ve listed include a serious one (as mentioned above): motor structure/suspension

“I’m sure other engineers and project managers *think* about it, but unfortunately not enough to have it reflected in their actions when trying to make a $10,000+ pair of speakers.” You only think this way because owning a Genelec loudspeaker has checked all of your preference boxes. “Other engineers” aren’t just thinking about it, they are also solving and minimizing problems.

Good luck hearing distortions in an M2 or 708. You can’t even handle higher SPL, you’d want out FAR before either of the loudspeakers do. If these loudspeakers aren’t for you, that is great, it is obvious to me that the Genelec’s are and that is great. Till this day, I haven’t heard a single loudspeaker I find to be better than the M2 (and I hate that you’re making me *argue* about preferences). Pay attention to your second to last statements: “that’s where out values would differ: I don’t value…” and “Size too I suppose it helps with, but that’s minor.” I, I, I and me. Preference based arguments that lead no where. Lastly, vertical dispersion isn’t a *glaring* issue with the 708 or JBL M2 unless you make it a *glaring* issue. Soundstage consistency? Get real. The waveguide in these monitors are not considered State-of-the-Art because of a lack of consistency in soundstage. That will ultimately be a room related issue with loudspeakers of such caliber and of course preference is always a factor.

And yes, warranty is a valid concern. To each their own. You are not the only person to obsess over things, I just PREFER to obsess over things that are ACTUALLY of *glaring* concern… I guess I can say, TO ME as well.

 

[richard12511]

Calm down, I did say that they deserve that much fervour; I myself think Genelec is the best brand in business, with maybe ME Geithain as the dark horse with not enough attention.
It's just that your implying that the 8260 is better than the 8341A or 8351B with subs isn't backed by anything other than marginally better linearity, which is a bit misleading, because Genelec can be inaccurate with this spec: Princeton measured the 8030A as better than their spec, for example.

Did some posts get deleted? I don't see where he said the 8260 is better than the 8341A or 8351B.

 

[richard12511]

I was more taking issue with the idea of fanboyism/not wanting to learn. I wish someone essentially said "here is data on why for X, Y, and Z, all other driver technologies are trash compared to the compression driver JBL uses." Then I'd learn something.

Since every speaker increases its score when the ideal sub is added, and since IIRC the baffle on the 8260 controls dispersion better than all but the 8351 and 8361, then the 8260 should score higher than the 8341 probably somewhere between or close the 8341+Sub, which would be by far the highest score for any single speaker unit.

JBL should know this, and if they do, hopefully there would be a speaker that has increased bass extension for its size, and since many use them for home theater and don't have ceiling treatment, and people might be lounging on the floor, standing up, or at different heights, make one with a coaxial driver. I should call Genelec and ask how much the part is to replace their coax. Sounds like most here think the price of the 708 is really fair, so for and extra $200 lets say, I think people would buy something that goes lower and has even vertical dispersion.

If someone has subs maybe they'd pick the current one, but I think in most cases getting good bass in the 20-30hz region at a bit lower peak volume would sway most people.

For me, the full range score of a single speaker is not so important. Even if it has good enough bass to get a good score, it will still sound bad in the bass region do to placement and physics. If you're trading say an extra 30hz extension for 3db more max output, then I'd rather have the extra output, as long as the speaker goes low enough to cross to subs. I think it depends on the person, and the things that he/she values.

 

[stevenswall]

I apologize for calling you any names if I did… Yes, this is rather frustrating. Are you serious? Find me a transducer that is perfect. Inherently flawed in design. Yes, Genelec, KEF, TAD, etc. has solved the problems that are inherent in coaxials. Other companies, like JBL, have done the same. The best loudspeaker designers minimize tradeoffs to the pint of little to no concern. That does not mean those flaws do not exist. They’ve been minimized to the point of little to no importance due to audibility. Doppler distortion, or frequency modulation distortion being one of them. When it comes to concentric drivers, there is also another form of amplitude modulation distortion (aside from the motor) — shift in frequency response of the tweeter due to the change in cone position. Not to mention, the change in the shape of the surround. What is the “fix?” The only way to minimize this is to use a concentric driver in a three-way loudspeaker. In other words, other issues on top of the “not inherent drawbacks” (sarcasm - they are inherent flaws that were minimized — There is a reason Genelec doesn’t use the concentric drivers in their main monitors and I wouldn’t take a pair of “The Ones” over any of them) you’ve listed include a serious one (as mentioned above): motor structure/suspension

“I’m sure other engineers and project managers *think* about it, but unfortunately not enough to have it reflected in their actions when trying to make a $10,000+ pair of speakers.” You only think this way because owning a Genelec loudspeaker has checked all of your preference boxes. “Other engineers” aren’t just thinking about it, they are also solving and minimizing problems.

Good luck hearing distortions in an M2 or 708. You can’t even handle higher SPL, you’d want out FAR before either of the loudspeakers do. If these loudspeakers aren’t for you, that is great, it is obvious to me that the Genelec’s are and that is great. Till this day, I haven’t heard a single loudspeaker I find to be better than the M2 (and I hate that you’re making me *argue* about preferences). Pay attention to your second to last statements: “that’s where out values would differ: I don’t value…” and “Size too I suppose it helps with, but that’s minor.” I, I, I and me. Preference based arguments that lead no where. Lastly, vertical dispersion isn’t a *glaring* issue with the 708 or JBL M2 unless you make it a *glaring* issue. Soundstage consistency? Get real. The waveguide in these monitors are not considered State-of-the-Art because of a lack of consistency in soundstage. That will ultimately be a room related issue with loudspeakers of such caliber and of course preference is always a factor.

And yes, warranty is a valid concern. To each their own. You are not the only person to obsess over things, I just PREFER to obsess over things that are ACTUALLY of *glaring* concern… I guess I can say, TO ME as well.

Other companies, like JBL, have not solved the issue of vertical dispersion lobing, shows as "blobs" and large dips at the crossover point in vertical dispersion graphs. Since this issue hasn't been minimized, myself and others can hear large differences depending on the vertical angle at which the speaker is listened to.

Doppler distortion is exactly what "Too much change in the waveguide presented to the tweeter is solved by Genelec" is referring to, and is not a legitimate (audible) issue anymore when correct principles are followed and a three way monitor is made as you mention. Not sure why it's being brought up.

"The change in the shape of the surround" is exactly what Genelec solved by making a minimum diffraction coaxial driver with a seamless/nonexistant surround. This is not an issue, again partly made possible by having a three way speaker.

You value loudness over accuracy it sounds like. I can accept that we value different things and if I similarly valued loudness over extension and accuracy I would also get one of their main monitors. As stated before, this isn't an issue for me as volume doesn't equal sound quality, and every speaker I've had is capable of going too loud.

Other engineers are solving and minimizing other problems, yes. Correct, I haven't seen many attempt or actually pay attention to every aspect Genelec does.

The I statements are to clarify what I'm looking for: Sound quality, not size, loudness, etc.

Glad you haven't stood up or sat down on the floor in an average size living room to watch a movie, as under those conditions, and locked into a vertical plane with no ceiling reflections, I'd not perceive an issue with the M2.

Oh, and by soundstage consistency *I* mean maintaining a realistic center image that doesn't have massive frequency response changes in the vertical and horizontal planes. The M2 solves one of those, to me *and* you.

"I apologize for calling you any names if I did… "

Here's the example that leans more towards name calling:
"...You’re delusional. Mistaken and misinformed."

Here's how it could be phrased to avoid that:
"I think you are mistaken when you say XYZ, and here is data to back it up, though it's a common case of misinformation to think XYZ."

Perhaps it would be best now to agree that we have different values and to ignore each other.

 

[stevenswall]

Did some posts get deleted? I don't see where he said the 8260 is better than the 8341A or 8351B.

In other threads I've suggested that due to the size of the waveguide and additional bass extension, it should score higher than the 8341. In another thread I think I directly criticized the 8351 (Maybe the B model?) for having a more ragged off axis frequency response.

I agree, if you have subs, then the bass addition to the score isn't going to matter so much, and you'll have better bass because you can position things more easily. If I did a low frequency cutoff, does that mean my speakers can play louder? Maybe that's a realistic tradeoff: If your speakers didn't go as deep you could turn them down and boost the bass and make them more appealing to me, or I could tame the bass on mine and turn them up more and have them be more to your preference. Right now I just wanted the best pair of speakers possible, though I do have a narrow null around 110 hz or so. Subs later perhaps.

 

[LDKTA]

Other companies, like JBL, have not solved the issue of vertical dispersion lobing, shows as "blobs" and large dips at the crossover point in vertical dispersion graphs. Since this issue hasn't been minimized, myself and others can hear large differences depending on the vertical angle at which the speaker is listened to.

Doppler distortion is exactly what "Too much change in the waveguide presented to the tweeter is solved by Genelec" is referring to, and is not a legitimate (audible) issue anymore when correct principles are followed and a three way monitor is made as you mention. Not sure why it's being brought up.

"The change in the shape of the surround" is exactly what Genelec solved by making a minimum diffraction coaxial driver with a seamless/nonexistant surround. This is not an issue, again partly made possible by having a three way speaker.

You value loudness over accuracy it sounds like. I can accept that we value different things and if I similarly valued loudness over extension and accuracy I would also get one of their main monitors. As stated before, this isn't an issue for me as volume doesn't equal sound quality, and every speaker I've had is capable of going too loud.

Other engineers are solving and minimizing other problems, yes. Correct, I haven't seen many attempt or actually pay attention to every aspect Genelec does.

The I statements are to clarify what I'm looking for: Sound quality, not size, loudness, etc.

Glad you haven't stood up or sat down on the floor in an average size living room to watch a movie, as under those conditions, and locked into a vertical plane with no ceiling reflections, I'd not perceive an issue with the M2.

Oh, and by soundstage consistency *I* mean maintaining a realistic center image that doesn't have massive frequency response changes in the vertical and horizontal planes. The M2 solves one of those, to me *and* you.

"I apologize for calling you any names if I did… "

Here's the example that leans more towards name calling:
"...You’re delusional. Mistaken and misinformed."

Here's how it could be phrased to avoid that:
"I think you are mistaken when you say XYZ, and here is data to back it up, though it's a common case of misinformation to think XYZ."

Perhaps it would be best now to agree that we have different values and to ignore each other.

I don't think you understood my post. Not well at least... The vertical dispersion lobing issue is not making or breaking ANY loudspeaker unless the design of the loudspeaker in question is truly horrible. This is exactly what I meant by *glaring* issues TO YOU. Do you think the designers of said loudspeakers that don't have an excellent vertical dispersion are ignoring it or do you think they realize that most people sit in the same vertical plane when listening? Do you think they don't know the vertical dispersion of their own loudspeakers? They do, they just aren't making a fit about it for a variety of reasons. In normal listening, how often is it that you find yourself standing up? Ceiling and floor reflections can be minimized. You still *have* to treat your room. Do you not? Do you not think I am able to hear those differences? Lol. These are tradeoffs that I reckon most people can live with, especially when everything else is done well. Why? Because it is NOT as important as you make it out to be. You are being extremely pedantic. The nitpicking to highlight what so many others know what Genelec does well. It is beginning to make more sense though... After reading your comment about the T-shirts and whatnot.

You're only repeating what I said. I mentioned all of that about coaxial coincident drivers because they are issues with the drivers. I am aware that Genelec was able to minimize them, that is what I am saying. You talk about the fact that these types of drivers do not have inherent flaws, but they do. They are not perfect.

"...I haven't seen many attempt or actually pay attention to every aspect Genelec does." Lol ok.

"Oh, and by soundstage consistency *I* mean maintaining a realistic center image that doesn't have massive frequency response changes in the vertical and horizontal planes. The M2 solves one of those, to me *and* you." I think you put far too much emphasis on the importance of vertical dispersion but to each their own. It is a nice thing to have and nothing more.

"You value loudness over accuracy it sounds like." Wrong. I do value accuracy. Loudness is NOT intensity. "...this isn't an issue for me as volume doesn't equal sound quality, and every speaker I've had is capable of going too loud." Lol. You're pretty funny man. Sure thing.

 

[richard12511]

In other threads I've suggested that due to the size of the waveguide and additional bass extension, it should score higher than the 8341. In another thread I think I directly criticized the 8351 (Maybe the B model?) for having a more ragged off axis frequency response.

I agree, if you have subs, then the bass addition to the score isn't going to matter so much, and you'll have better bass because you can position things more easily. If I did a low frequency cutoff, does that mean my speakers can play louder? Maybe that's a realistic tradeoff: If your speakers didn't go as deep you could turn them down and boost the bass and make them more appealing to me, or I could tame the bass on mine and turn them up more and have them be more to your preference. Right now I just wanted the best pair of speakers possible, though I do have a narrow null around 110 hz or so. Subs later perhaps.

Ahh, gotcha. I think the spl levels we like to listen at is a very subjective thing. Seems to vary from person to person quite a bit.

 

[stevenswall]

Ahh, gotcha. I think the spl levels we like to listen at is a very subjective thing. Seems to vary from person to person quite a bit.

True. Hopefully average levels are healthy. I need to get an SPL meter and set things to 85dB or so... Peaks 25dB above that should do it for me for nearly all music if Dynamic Range Database is accurate.

 

[QMuse]

True. Hopefully average levels are healthy. I need to get an SPL meter and set things to 85dB or so... Peaks 25dB above that should do it for me for nearly all music if Dynamic Range Database is accurate.

Continuos listening of music at average level of 85dB is not healthy. You would feel discomfort after a few hours at most.

 

[Ron Texas]

A pair of Genelec 8260's cost about $11,000 in the US and GLM is extra. A new set of stands will be needed due to their odd 22" height and substantial 60 lb weight. Just providing a reference point.