Look for a decent center speaker that you can fit right under the TV. How much vertical space is there before it starts to block the TV? Ideally the center matches the L & R, but it doesn't HAVE to be the same brand. Just something decent that fits should suffice.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Jamo C803 vs ELAC DBR 62
- Thread starter notabenem
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
I am sitting 4m from the speakers (direct distance to each front speaker). The floor is laminated. Ceiling plasterboard.
I have tried to play around with the speakers positioning (putting them closer to the TV, moving them higher than they are now), but it had no effect on the dialogue clarity. So I went for a wider setup.
These speakers are old, not manufactured any more and later models seem to be worse in measurements than this series. But then again, it's just my inexperienced interpretation of the charts posted.
My assumption was that a quality stereo setup should give enough clarity so that I don't need a center, when I sit exactly in the middle between the speakers. Seems I was mistaken. I will have to either find something on the used market (good luck buying just a CENTER), or take one from a different manufacturer. What if I used one of the surrounds (a bipole speaker) as a center?
I have tried to play around with the speakers positioning (putting them closer to the TV, moving them higher than they are now), but it had no effect on the dialogue clarity. So I went for a wider setup.
These speakers are old, not manufactured any more and later models seem to be worse in measurements than this series. But then again, it's just my inexperienced interpretation of the charts posted.
My assumption was that a quality stereo setup should give enough clarity so that I don't need a center, when I sit exactly in the middle between the speakers. Seems I was mistaken. I will have to either find something on the used market (good luck buying just a CENTER), or take one from a different manufacturer. What if I used one of the surrounds (a bipole speaker) as a center?
- Thread Starter
- #23
The issue is that I am not sure if I am satisfied with the speakers as such. I just don't know if the deficiencies are because of a wrong setup, or wrong speakers.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2020
- Messages
- 479
- Likes
- 853
When i was between AV prepros, i had only stereo preamp for a while. A month or so. I only had two front speakers and it was almost impossible to watch movies. Dialog was a problem and immersion sucked. And i am some 3m far from speakers.
If you are sitting 4m far from speakers, you need a dedicated center speaker. Now, whether you buy used Jamo or buy something similar to complement current setup or completely change current setup, that is another matter.
If you are sitting 4m far from speakers, you need a dedicated center speaker. Now, whether you buy used Jamo or buy something similar to complement current setup or completely change current setup, that is another matter.
Try a couple of large blankets on the floor between you and the speakers. If you like that better, get a thick rug to place there.
Where are you located?
Decent center speakers show up on eBay all the time. The Infinity center reviewed a few months ago on here goes on sale for cheap, but it might be too big.
The speakers are fine. I have a pair (as I said before), and they're pretty good - certainly good enough for movie watching. A center really helps with dialogue.
- Thread Starter
- #27
Going to try the blankets.
After a lot of reading yesterday, i also realized that if I go for a center, quality wise it has to be at least equal or better than the current fronts (because 80% of the sounds in movies is mixed into the center channel) - just checked an AC3 sound track decoded in audacity. As soon as the center is enabled, the FL, FR speakers start acting as surrounds.
The problem is the clearance below the TV. It is only 16cm, thus big(ger) woofers won't fit there and I'll end up with worse overall quality than now. I may lift the current TV by 5cm, that could be done, but I also plan on installing a bigger screen, so...
Another thing is that based on the measurements of C803 it seems they are going down below 4 ohms (at 200Hz) while having an SPL of 89dB / 2.83V @1m. It needs 2.7W for that (P = U*U/R). My listening position is 4m, thus the effective SPL i should get is 77dB at that distance (my phone measured 72dB only - but it's an uncalibrated phone). I figure I need ~22W of clean power (with no headroom) to reach reference level at my position. If I want some headroom of even only 6dB, I am well into the ~100W territory per channel. This would be especially the case with the center. Fortunately having an L and R makes the required power level only the half of that, or additional 3dB of headroom. Unless I messed this up completely.
Data says my current Marantz SR5003 should be able to give 200W at 4ohms with 0.1THD - https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...receiver-ht-labs-measures#sX7QKe1oK6kfExKO.97
Do you think this is indeed enough? Would you consider a switch to Denon X3700H? I wonder, if it would make an audible difference.
Last, going test the Elacs. Just because I am curious.
EDIT: the Jamo's are bi-amped. Not sure if this is a good idea given the setup. The Elacs don't support bi-amping.
After a lot of reading yesterday, i also realized that if I go for a center, quality wise it has to be at least equal or better than the current fronts (because 80% of the sounds in movies is mixed into the center channel) - just checked an AC3 sound track decoded in audacity. As soon as the center is enabled, the FL, FR speakers start acting as surrounds.
The problem is the clearance below the TV. It is only 16cm, thus big(ger) woofers won't fit there and I'll end up with worse overall quality than now. I may lift the current TV by 5cm, that could be done, but I also plan on installing a bigger screen, so...
Another thing is that based on the measurements of C803 it seems they are going down below 4 ohms (at 200Hz) while having an SPL of 89dB / 2.83V @1m. It needs 2.7W for that (P = U*U/R). My listening position is 4m, thus the effective SPL i should get is 77dB at that distance (my phone measured 72dB only - but it's an uncalibrated phone). I figure I need ~22W of clean power (with no headroom) to reach reference level at my position. If I want some headroom of even only 6dB, I am well into the ~100W territory per channel. This would be especially the case with the center. Fortunately having an L and R makes the required power level only the half of that, or additional 3dB of headroom. Unless I messed this up completely.
Data says my current Marantz SR5003 should be able to give 200W at 4ohms with 0.1THD - https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...receiver-ht-labs-measures#sX7QKe1oK6kfExKO.97
Do you think this is indeed enough? Would you consider a switch to Denon X3700H? I wonder, if it would make an audible difference.
Last, going test the Elacs. Just because I am curious.
EDIT: the Jamo's are bi-amped. Not sure if this is a good idea given the setup. The Elacs don't support bi-amping.
Last edited:
The center speaker doesn't have to be "better" than the L and R, but it should not be substantially worse. Almost as good works, just as good works, a little better works, a lot better works.
Your Marantz has plenty of power for your situation, unless you listen to movies at extremely loud levels (in which case you risk damaging your speakers and your hearing). Remember, when you use a center, more power goes to it, but now less power goes to the L and R speakers. Your Marantz should handle that fine.
I was concerned your space under the TV might be too short. The NHT Classic Two C is a good center speaker that might just fit. Energy C-C1 (older model) might fit too. I'm sure there are others too.
Your Marantz has plenty of power for your situation, unless you listen to movies at extremely loud levels (in which case you risk damaging your speakers and your hearing). Remember, when you use a center, more power goes to it, but now less power goes to the L and R speakers. Your Marantz should handle that fine.
I was concerned your space under the TV might be too short. The NHT Classic Two C is a good center speaker that might just fit. Energy C-C1 (older model) might fit too. I'm sure there are others too.
- Thread Starter
- #30
For the first time ever, today, when watching Edge of Tomorrow, around 0:17:xx, the amp shut itself down when watching the movie at -10dB. The surface was nowhere close to hot or very warm. I have never watched this movie this loud. More like on -20. I have watched others around -8dB, but those were not so full of effects.
I think sometimes it's just vibrations and loose electrical/electronic connections. Sometimes unexplainable. Just make sure your subwoofer isn't touching the avr console/rack and also add some rubber/felt/foam isolation pad under the avr feet. I had same problems before but after doing that, it has never shut off on its own again. I also moved the avr further away from the subwoofer. Maybe that helps too.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #32
I don't have a sub. And it's definitely that part of the movie (Edit: it was around 0:20:xx on the battlefield). Replaying it causing the same result.
I have also tried reassigning one of the surrounds as center. Much better vocal clarity (and I mean MUCH), I have to admit. But it was also lacking the deeper tones (configured the CENTER as a 'small' speaker in AV because the surrounds start at 65Hz instead of the 45Hz of the fronts) and frankly it was very unusual for me that most of the sounds came from below the TV. I found it very irritating, but probably I can get used to it.
So long story short: I need a good center or an amp that downmixes center into phantom centers with much better clarity.
And a stronger AMP. Or a powered sub.
I have also tried reassigning one of the surrounds as center. Much better vocal clarity (and I mean MUCH), I have to admit. But it was also lacking the deeper tones (configured the CENTER as a 'small' speaker in AV because the surrounds start at 65Hz instead of the 45Hz of the fronts) and frankly it was very unusual for me that most of the sounds came from below the TV. I found it very irritating, but probably I can get used to it.
So long story short: I need a good center or an amp that downmixes center into phantom centers with much better clarity.
And a stronger AMP. Or a powered sub.
Definitely get the sub first.
Bi-amping from one AVR isn't doing anything for you. It's ok to leave it, but it's not helping anything (probably not hurting either).
- Thread Starter
- #36
I have received today a pair of DBR 62 and spent probably an hour toggling my AVR between the JAMO fronts and the ELACs. Audyssey was configured for the JAMOs.
Immediate observations are the following:
There's a clear audible difference between them and it took me quite some time to realize what do I exactly hear...
The JAMOs create a wider and more filled sense of sound, which I fancied more, until i figured that it's REVERB and echo. There were times I heard the sound coming from the JAMOs from the side - they must have been bouncing off the wall (but why???). It did not help if I stuffed the port or not or I moved them around, the echo/reverb was there. This may have been one of the primary reasons why the dialogues are/were muffled. Also, vocals from the JAMOs seemed to carry some kind of distortion (kind of harshness + the echo) that became apparent when switching back and forth between the two speakers. When listening to female vocals and Oboe tracks, I could hear some of the frequencies resonating more on the JAMOs than it was pleasing. Again, this became apparent only as a result of direct comparison with the ELACs.
The ELACs transmitted the dialogues much clearer. So much that I understood even some of the words that I haven't been able to distinguish up until now.
With the ELACs I don't feel the need for a CENTER!
I am yet to make up my mind whether the reverb coming from JAMOs are the result of the speaker or the room. Having the other pair of speakers with the same AMP in the same room not resulting in echo tells me it's not the room. I suspect the back-firing nature of JAMOs being part of the reason, but that should have been mitigated by stuffing the port. Sounds strange to me that the speaker (or the cabinet?) would create something like this.
Overall the ELACs have a more modest and smooth sound, but I am writing this in a very positive way. They sound less fancy, admittedly, and I may have wished for a bigger difference, though I am very confident I'm going to keep the ELACs and find a new place for the JAMOs (either as back surrounds, or a different room or different owner). The clarity of the dialogues and the purity of the sound won in comparison to a bigger stage and fancy sound.
Immediate observations are the following:
- From a tonality perspective, they are equal
- The ELAC seem to be slightly of lower sensitivity in terms of loudness. The difference is minimal.
- JAMOs have a back-firing bass reflex port. ELACs have a front-firing port.
- ELACs are slighly smaller, and wifey likes the color and look of them more. This is important, you know.
- JAMOs have slightly stronger bass (not that steep fall-off).
There's a clear audible difference between them and it took me quite some time to realize what do I exactly hear...
The JAMOs create a wider and more filled sense of sound, which I fancied more, until i figured that it's REVERB and echo. There were times I heard the sound coming from the JAMOs from the side - they must have been bouncing off the wall (but why???). It did not help if I stuffed the port or not or I moved them around, the echo/reverb was there. This may have been one of the primary reasons why the dialogues are/were muffled. Also, vocals from the JAMOs seemed to carry some kind of distortion (kind of harshness + the echo) that became apparent when switching back and forth between the two speakers. When listening to female vocals and Oboe tracks, I could hear some of the frequencies resonating more on the JAMOs than it was pleasing. Again, this became apparent only as a result of direct comparison with the ELACs.
The ELACs transmitted the dialogues much clearer. So much that I understood even some of the words that I haven't been able to distinguish up until now.
With the ELACs I don't feel the need for a CENTER!
I am yet to make up my mind whether the reverb coming from JAMOs are the result of the speaker or the room. Having the other pair of speakers with the same AMP in the same room not resulting in echo tells me it's not the room. I suspect the back-firing nature of JAMOs being part of the reason, but that should have been mitigated by stuffing the port. Sounds strange to me that the speaker (or the cabinet?) would create something like this.
Overall the ELACs have a more modest and smooth sound, but I am writing this in a very positive way. They sound less fancy, admittedly, and I may have wished for a bigger difference, though I am very confident I'm going to keep the ELACs and find a new place for the JAMOs (either as back surrounds, or a different room or different owner). The clarity of the dialogues and the purity of the sound won in comparison to a bigger stage and fancy sound.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #37
After re-reading the measurements in #4 (freq flatness in the 100Hz-10kHz range with +-1.2dB) and the fact that the sound does NOT come directly from the speaker, but rather from the 'room' (as opposed to the ELACs where the sound is coming directly from the speaker), I start to think that the JAMO's must not be utter garbage. Maybe the amps can't drive them properly in the vocal range, or it has to do something with the room acoustics and the ELACs seem not affected by that. Needless to say, I prefer the imaging of the JAMOs much more than the pointy and boring nature of the ELACs.
After discussing with Rick I have tried pillows to address the echo, swapping cables and amp output ports between the speaker sets, repositioning the speakers, but none of them helped to mitigate the subpar dialogue clarity for the JAMOs.
I feel I have to give some more chance to the JAMOs to prove their measured quality in real life and setup.
After discussing with Rick I have tried pillows to address the echo, swapping cables and amp output ports between the speaker sets, repositioning the speakers, but none of them helped to mitigate the subpar dialogue clarity for the JAMOs.
I feel I have to give some more chance to the JAMOs to prove their measured quality in real life and setup.
Last edited:
Most of us use a subwoofer. You should only set speakers to small if you have a subwoofer.
- Thread Starter
- #39
Mystery solved. The echo was added by the amp, in the "AUTO" mode. When switching to "Source Direct" or "Pure Direct" the dialogs suddenly became clear. Apparently this (old) Audyssey is having an issue with phantom center channels and somehow JAMOs are less forgiving (or more revealing, more affected by that, you name it) than the ELACs probably because their stage is naturally wider and the sound is more in front of me rather than in the speaker.
I have also realized (after reading amirs article) that I have done it all wrong and I need to listen to the speakers in mono.
When re-listening to some classical tracks (in mono), the triangle hits indeed sounded like bells on the JAMOs whereas the ELACs told me there was a triangle hit, but no tingling followed.
Funny thing is, I have realized that over the past days, no matter which speaker have I decided on as being better, I felt sad for the other paid. Either because
Anyway, I have learned a lot from this experience, thanks for being here and helping me.
I have also realized (after reading amirs article) that I have done it all wrong and I need to listen to the speakers in mono.
When re-listening to some classical tracks (in mono), the triangle hits indeed sounded like bells on the JAMOs whereas the ELACs told me there was a triangle hit, but no tingling followed.
Funny thing is, I have realized that over the past days, no matter which speaker have I decided on as being better, I felt sad for the other paid. Either because
- I felt like I have been listening to a wrong pair of speakers for the past years and I need to get rid of them. Together with the doubt of what If they are indeed not that wrong and I am just unable to properly reveal their true quality and would be 'throwing out' an exceptional pair of speakers.
- or that the ELACs are not that big of a difference (or even a let-down) to my current speakers and I can't increase the sound quality being on the budget I am
Anyway, I have learned a lot from this experience, thanks for being here and helping me.
Just for clarity, when did you suspect your Marantz? After you tried mono?
On my old Onkyo, mono is one of the DSP modes and Pure Direct is in stereo. Was the root cause the DSP setting for a phantom center?
Similar threads
