I've Been Deceived!

[muslhead]

How do you figure that? All the seller needs to do is make reasonable efforts on the buyer's behalf to pack the product and place it in the hands of the shipping company. His job is done at that point. If he does an utterly crap job packing the product, fair enough, but if he packed it well, subsequent damage is not his problem.

Once funds have changed hands, ownership shifts to the buyer and he becomes wholly responsible for any loss or damage.

Just because eBay may offer something over and above that, doesn't change the basic facts.

Especially true if buying for parts only.
The only caveat would be if the pics presented on ebay were substantially different that what it looked like after possession by the buyer

 

[muslhead]

I've been pretty fortunate over time. I've ordered, IIRC, five pieces of used electronics equipment off of eBay - a Technics 1200 MK II, a early 70s Pioneer receiver (can't remember the model off hand and it's off in a closet somewhere), an AKAI reel-to-reel deck, an Emotiva XPA-2 gen 2, and a Nakamichi cassette deck. All arrived undamaged (at least that I could tell) and in good working order. The Technics was HORRIBLY packed up but FedEx apparently hadn't gotten quite so bad back then (2012 I believe) and didn't destroy it. No electronics I've purchased new from a retail seller has ever come damaged. To be fair, the Emotiva was from Emotiva's ebay store back when they were selling returns and refurbs that way so they knew how to pack it correctly.

I have been unfortunate.
I shipped a pair of like new, raidho bookshelves that were dropped by UPS during shipment.
Ups stated it was their fault and jerked me around paying less than the insurance that was taken on the speakers. I can only be jerked around so long, i took them to court and won. Well, i may have won the battle but i lost the war.
They have yet to pay me on court verdict ... i am accruing 10% interest per annum if i can ever collect.

 

[Helicopter]

I have ordered dozens of decks from across the country and only had 3 bad experiences at this level. Two were improperly packed. I got money back without hassle each time. I think I paid return shipping on one but not the others. I guess I have had a few with minor damage that I just accepted without making a stink, and probably 70% of the stuff arrived fine. There is definitely a correlation between weight and damage. It is certainly preferable to pick stuff up locally.

 

[warnerwh]

How do you figure that? All the seller needs to do is make reasonable efforts on the buyer's behalf to pack the product and place it in the hands of the shipping company. His job is done at that point. If he does an utterly crap job packing the product, fair enough, but if he packed it well, subsequent damage is not his problem.

Once funds have changed hands, ownership shifts to the buyer and he becomes wholly responsible for any loss or damage.

Just because eBay may offer something over and above that, doesn't change the basic facts.

I have dealt with Ebay and Audiogon extensively over many years and have been on both sides of the issue. I don't know if it is a law but those two companies will hold the seller responsible if the purchasers product isn't received intact. If you have a seller who is incompetent with packaging how can you hold the buyer responsible? Even though the sub was sold as parts the pictures must be accurate as to what the purchaser is getting.

Also I believe only the shipper can file a claim for the insurance he/she paid for.

 

[Kachda]

eBay has fairly strong buyer protection. You can contact them and request them to step in even if the seller refuses.

I sold a pair of B&W headphones on ebay once and someone in Canada bought it. Though I double boxed it, including the original packaging, it arrived at the buyers after almost a month in a shocking state. It seemed that the box had been left in a hot warehouse for a month (in the middle of summer), and the glue had literally melted out of the headphones. The seller immediately asked for a refund (without even contacting me) and ebay refunded the money from my account (which is a fair enough given the condition the headphones were delivered in). Luckily for me, I contacted ebay and made my case that it was the shipping company's fault, and since I have a good sales history on ebay and the shipping was also handled by ebay (due to international sale), they paid the sale price to me (and probably claimed insurance).

 

[King_Pin]

I seem to remember that there's a European or British standard that requires any item to survive undamaged from a drop from 1m (39") onto concrete on any edge or corner. Back in around 1998/9, I was involved in tests for some new packaging we were designing for one of our products, and we did all sorts of tests from our shipping dock onto the ground. The one that worked best was polystyrene peanuts and a box some 200mm (8") bigger than the equipment on all sides. Some years later I was impressed by one of my suppliers that suspended their product on rubber bands, inside an oversized box, and we never had transit damage with them. Large equipment like Transmitters, that didn't have to pass a drop test, were crated in double-skinned wooden crates, and the damage there was fork-lift blades through the sides.

Since then, anything I've sold I've overpacked, and it's all survived, but I have a lot of respect for those who design packaging as they have to cater for almost unbelievable treatment from freight handlers and delivery drivers, and still be affordable and manageable.

S.

If it's a smaller item that won't be fork lift loaded I stick with the styrofoam. In some cases I have also done what you have mentioned is fill the surrounding area around the dense styrofoam sheets with peanuts or air bags.
Larger items like my tower speakers I shipped across the country I wrapped them with anti scratch wrap, then 2/5" styrofoam and bagged. Put on a crate that had a solid sheet of plywood and foam on the base and then strapped the speakers down and built a wooden plywood frame so forks wouldn't penetrate but push the box.

 

[Presently42]

Fabulous pics! I'm sure whoever got those speakers was very glad at having them them all in one piece!

The seller hasn't replied to my second round of enquiries yet - but it's Sunday. We'll see what tomorrow brings. I hope to not have to contact Ebay, as he seems a friendly sort; and I'd rather not get him in to any sort of trouble. I certainly don't want to return it: I can always fix the problem! We'll see what Rythmik says, now I've sent them pics too.

Thanks a bunch for all the constructive and interesting posts! I wasn't expecting anything, really - just wanted to vent a bit. This community is not only educative, but supportive as well!

 

[Chrispy]

How do you figure that? All the seller needs to do is make reasonable efforts on the buyer's behalf to pack the product and place it in the hands of the shipping company. His job is done at that point. If he does an utterly crap job packing the product, fair enough, but if he packed it well, subsequent damage is not his problem.

Once funds have changed hands, ownership shifts to the buyer and he becomes wholly responsible for any loss or damage.

Just because eBay may offer something over and above that, doesn't change the basic facts.

If he's paying the shipper including freight then it is more the shipper's responsibility thru delivery. If the buyer had arranged his own transport, that could still go back to poor packing by the shipper. The claim on prepaid freight is generally in the shipper's hands. Not sure about ebay policies at all, just general logistics practices.

 

[Daverz]

How do you figure that? All the seller needs to do is make reasonable efforts

Jeebus, the item had large particles of food in it:

"I had to open the sub and take out the peanuts, almonds and a choco chip from inside!"

I understand this need to be contrarian, I really do. But it gets really tiresome after a while.

 

[syn08]

How do you figure that? All the seller needs to do is make reasonable efforts on the buyer's behalf to pack the product and place it in the hands of the shipping company. His job is done at that point. If he does an utterly crap job packing the product, fair enough, but if he packed it well, subsequent damage is not his problem.

Once funds have changed hands, ownership shifts to the buyer and he becomes wholly responsible for any loss or damage.

Just because eBay may offer something over and above that, doesn't change the basic facts.

Not exactly true. Doesn’t matter who’s responsible for the damage, the customer should always immediately complain to the seller, provide documentation (usually photo/video) on the damage, and from there is the seller’s problem. Even if it’s obvious the shipping company screwed the item, the buyer still won’t be able to trigger an investigation with the shipping company and get reimbursed for the shipping cost and the item cost or the insured amount (if it exceeds the default amount). Only the seller/shipper can request such an investigation and eventually collect the money from the shipping company.

Until it is decided who’s at fault, the buyer is not hold responsible for the damage, and EBay or any non scammer online store will promptly reimburse the buyer, again, provided that proper documentation of the damage is provided. The seller may require that the damaged goods are returned, at his expense.

If the item has external damage, it’s a good idea for the buyer to not accept the delivery and notify the seller immediately of the potential problem. The investigation will happen while item is still in shipping company possession, which would simplify the investigation.

Don’t ask how I learned these...

 

[syn08]

I sold a pair of B&W headphones on ebay once and someone in Canada bought it. Though I double boxed it, including the original packaging, it arrived at the buyers after almost a month in a shocking state.

Hear this one, about 10 years ago I purchased a SMA Series III tonearm for an EBay seller in the US. The tonearm was advertised and shown in photos as pristine and complete.

A few weeks later in received the package, that was obviously opened and re-sealed, but otherwise in good shape. Must be the Canadian Customs checking out, so I signed for delivery.

When opening the package, the tonearm holder was broken in several pieces, parts were missing, and the S shaped titanium tonearm tube was bent and broken in halves. WTF, who destroyed this? Then came the click, when I realized the whole package had a faint smell of Yerba Buena. Must be an idiot in the Canadian customs which, instead of flagging the package and reporting his suspicions, decided to break everything to pieces in search of the substance (illegal at the time in Canada). Not finding anything, he re-packed the results of his detective work and forwarded the package to Canada Post for delivery.

I got promptly reimbursed by EBay after filing a “not as expected” ticket and attached photos of the Canada customs work results.

 

[restorer-john]

Totally disagree with this. Until the product is in my hands it is on the seller. Lost or damaged in shipping on ANY common carrier requires the seller/shipper to make the claim, NOT the buyer/receiver. I don't know any platform that does not recognize this basic condition of selling and you can pretty much always get your money back for items inadequately packaged.

Online Auction houses- that's what eBay is. You tell me a single Auction house, be they online or physical that offers you any guarantees of any sort. Especially on old, damaged or broken secondhand goods. They are just the facilitator and all goods are sold as is, and with not a single guarantee.

Like yourself, I have been fortunate both in my selling many hundreds of things in the past and buying many hundreds to not have issues. I communicate with sellers and tell them I will pay whatever it takes in packaging to get the item to me in one piece. And when I used to sell things, packaging was an art for me, especially turntables.

These days, I can't be bothered with selling or buying much on eBay- it all got too hard and expensive with commissions, freight and scammers.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Online Auction houses- that's what eBay is. You tell me a single Auction house, be they online or physical that offers you any guarantees of any sort. Especially on old, damaged or broken secondhand goods. They are just the facilitator and all goods are sold as is, and with not a single guarantee.

Like yourself, I have been fortunate both in my selling many hundreds of things in the past and buying many hundreds to not have issues. I communicate with sellers and tell them I will pay whatever it takes in packaging to get the item to me in one piece. And when I used to sell things, packaging was an art for me, especially turntables.

These days, I can't be bothered with selling or buying much on eBay- it all got too hard and expensive with commissions, freight and scammers.

I've had no dealings with in person auctions where one can actually inspect hoods, ask numerous questions, etc, before bidding. But those rules don't apply to eBay and I don't recall they ever did. Also, ebay has grown far beyond being an "online auction house" as much of the product is listed as "but it now". Their implementation of buyer protections is what really allowed it to grow.

Your last paragraph I wholly agree with and have bought nothing substantial off of eBay in years. Small collectibles? That's another matter.

 

[King_Pin]

I just got this today from FEDEX. It's one of my Kali IN8 V2's.
I'm scared to open it.

 

[Presently42]

Oof!

Perhaps the titles of this thread should be: I've Been Deceived! And Other Horror Stories

 

[Tom C]

I once ordered a toilet from Kohler. It arrived shattered. I returned it.
Then I ordered from Home Depot. It arrived shattered. I returned it.
I then held a race: reordered from both Kohler and Home Depot, thinking I’d keep returning and reordering, and accept whoever got it to me first, intact, would be the winner-and the one I’d keep.
Home Depot won. I had it delivered to the local store and refused to accept until they had unboxed and verified it was in a single piece.
Hard to believe that process is cheaper for the manufacture/shipper than packing correctly, but it must be…otherwise, they’d pack properly.
I’ve had good luck shipping expensive electronics to my son by having the UPS store do the packing, and insuring for full value. It’s amazing how gentle those big gorillas get when their employer is on the hook.

 

[dmac6419]

If it's a smaller item that won't be fork lift loaded I stick with the styrofoam. In some cases I have also done what you have mentioned is fill the surrounding area around the dense styrofoam sheets with peanuts or air bags.
Larger items like my tower speakers I shipped across the country I wrapped them with anti scratch wrap, then 2/5" styrofoam and bagged. Put on a crate that had a solid sheet of plywood and foam on the base and then strapped the speakers down and built a wooden plywood frame so forks wouldn't penetrate but push the box.

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Fedex always dropping schitt.

 

[Presently42]

Fedex always dropping schitt.

It was indeed FedEx, who delivered my peanutty parcel

 

[tomtoo]

I just got this today from FEDEX. It's one of my Kali IN8 V2's.
I'm scared to open it.

Looks like they had hefty fighting going on, to defend it, while transporting it through a war zone.

 

[TLEDDY]

I shipped Carver Silver Sevens (tubes) from Florida to California and had UPS do the packing.

Arrived totally trashed, even chassis were bent. Was paid completely and refunded very disappointed buyer. Cannot imagine how far the drop was to do the extensive damage.