It is no longer unwise to spend more on an amplifier

[curiouspeter]

The conventional wisdom is that one should spend more on speakers than on the amplifier. The reason is that the next extra dollar can buy more improvement in the speakers than in the amplifier. I am sure this is true in many cases. Going from $10K to $100K, one can probably can more bang for the buck in speakers versus other components. However, it is not necessarily true on the lower end of the price range.

Nowadays, all-in-one amplifiers have many features like room correction, HDMI eARC, streaming, etc. It takes significant R&D to bring such products to the market. It may even involve third-party licensing (e.g. Dirac Live) or a considerable certification process (e.g. Roon Ready). To ensure a good user experience, apps and other pieces of software must be developed and maintained.

Anyway, in 2022, it is hard (impossible?) to find a stereo amplifier with built-in Room Correction and HDMI eARC for less than $2400 (TDAI-1120). Even if you forgo the convenience of HDMI, SHD Power still costs more than $1500. Unless one has a computer close to the audio setup that can do Dirac, it is hard to pay less without a lot of DIY-ing with REW.

Frankly, I would rather have $1000 speakers with room correction than $2000 ones without.

 

[Chrispy]

Amplifiers aren't exactly the same as processors....when one says amp its presumably a power amp only. The other types vary in use/spec. I blame the euro 2ch crowd

 

[dlaloum]

Yes AVR's are incredibly value - but they are also usually relatively "basic" amplifiers.

They typically have very limited current (power supply) capacity - and therefore work best with high efficiency, high impedance (8ohm) speakers

Speakers with crossovers or drivers that result in low impedances (eg: 4ohm or below - some speakers drop below 2ohm)

Many AVR's will self protect and either shut down or lower output when driven into 4 ohm speakers at high levels.

Having said that.... the AVR's are incredible value for money, and the internal amps are more than ample for surround and height speakers - so an ideal combination can often be achieved by using external amps to drive the "mains" (Front L / C / R) and let the AVR handle the other speakers.

This also means that many of us need to spend more for external amplifiers to provide the right speaker/amp combination for our own environment.

People who own 1ohm impedance Martin Logan or Acoustat speakers - need amplifiers with very robust current capabilities (your typical AVR is going to sound terrible into these - and likely to shut down to self protect!)

My own speakers have 3 ohm into the woofer, and 1.6 ohm into the tweeter.... sound terrible connected to the AVR, but sound great being driven through Crown XLS amps, which are fed by the AVR pre-outs.

There is definitely a place for amps above and beyond what is built into Integrated's and/or Receivers.

 

[Holmz]

…

Anyway, in 2022, it is hard (impossible?) to find a stereo amplifier with built-in Room Correction and HDMI eARC for less than $2400 (TDAI-1120). Even if you forgo the convenience of HDMI, SHD Power still costs more than $1500. Unless one has a computer close to the audio setup that can do Dirac, it is hard to pay less without a lot of DIY-ing with REW.

Frankly, I would rather have $1000 speakers with room correction than $2000 ones without.

I am a bit interested in the Lyngdorf TDAI integrated.
It is like a 2 channel AVR, without the video part.

 

[curiouspeter]

Yes AVR's are incredibly value - but they are also usually relatively "basic" amplifiers.

They typically have very limited current (power supply) capacity - and therefore work best with high efficiency, high impedance (8ohm) speakers

Speakers with crossovers or drivers that result in low impedances (eg: 4ohm or below - some speakers drop below 2ohm)

Many AVR's will self protect and either shut down or lower output when driven into 4 ohm speakers at high levels.

Having said that.... the AVR's are incredible value for money, and the internal amps are more than ample for surround and height speakers - so an ideal combination can often be achieved by using external amps to drive the "mains" (Front L / C / R) and let the AVR handle the other speakers.

This also means that many of us need to spend more for external amplifiers to provide the right speaker/amp combination for our own environment.

People who own 1ohm impedance Martin Logan or Acoustat speakers - need amplifiers with very robust current capabilities (your typical AVR is going to sound terrible into these - and likely to shut down to self protect!)

My own speakers have 3 ohm into the woofer, and 1.6 ohm into the tweeter.... sound terrible connected to the AVR, but sound great being driven through Crown XLS amps, which are fed by the AVR pre-outs.

There is definitely a place for amps above and beyond what is built into Integrated's and/or Receivers.

True, although some integrated amps are very capable.

The TDAI-3400 puts out 400W at 4 ohms. High current is no problem. Even my tiny TDAI-1120 is happy with 4 Ohms and below.

 

[curiouspeter]

I am a bit interested in the Lyngdorf TDAI integrated.
It is like a 2 channel AVR, without the video part.

The line is blurry. I think that will be the trend. A lot of people share their speakers with the TV. It makes a lot of sense.

There are more and more options with DRC under $3000 now:

NAD C399, NAD M10 V2, Lyngdorf TDAI-1120

 

[Holmz]

The line is blurry. I think that will be the trend. A lot of people share their speakers with the TV. It makes a lot of sense.

There are more and more options with DRC under $3000 now:

NAD C399, NAD M10 V2, Lyngdorf TDAI-1120

For that specific amplifier it is more like the AVR morphed to 2 channel.
So it is more of an integrated (all in one) solution than using a separate Dirac, or a MiniDSP.

And it is not like NAD and Lyngdorf are different beasts.
(That is like claiming a Holden Monaro better than a Pontiac GTO.)

 

[Peluvius]

The conventional wisdom is that one should spend more on speakers than on the amplifier. The reason is that the next extra dollar can buy more improvement in the speakers than in the amplifier. I am sure this is true in many cases. Going from $10K to $100K, one can probably can more bang for the buck in speakers versus other components. However, it is not necessarily true on the lower end of the price range.

Nowadays, all-in-one amplifiers have many features like room correction, HDMI eARC, streaming, etc. It takes significant R&D to bring such products to the market. It may even involve third-party licensing (e.g. Dirac Live) or a considerable certification process (e.g. Roon Ready). To ensure a good user experience, apps and other pieces of software must be developed and maintained.

Anyway, in 2022, it is hard (impossible?) to find a stereo amplifier with built-in Room Correction and HDMI eARC for less than $2400 (TDAI-1120). Even if you forgo the convenience of HDMI, SHD Power still costs more than $1500. Unless one has a computer close to the audio setup that can do Dirac, it is hard to pay less without a lot of DIY-ing with REW.

Frankly, I would rather have $1000 speakers with room correction than $2000 ones without.

Without knowing more about your particular application, I would suggest active speakers with a subwoofer may be an alternative path. There are a few options then to introduce Dirac or other room corrections. The pre-out from many less expensive AVRs these days are adequate for multichannel and you can often use them to introduce EQ depending on the model.

 

[curiouspeter]

For that specific amplifier it is more like the AVR morphed to 2 channel.
So it is more of an integrated (all in one) solution than using a separate Dirac, or a MiniDSP.

And it is not like NAD and Lyngdorf are different beasts.
(That is like claiming a Holden Monaro better than a Pontiac GTO.)

Well, it is also down to industrial design and user experience. It is a lifestyle product after all.

I think Dirac is more transparent about what is going on. RoomPerfect is more of a blackbox.

Without knowing more about your particular application, I would suggest active speakers with a subwoofer may be an alternative path. There are a few options then to introduce Dirac or other room corrections. The pre-out from many less expensive AVRs these days are adequate for multichannel and you can often use them to introduce EQ depending on the model.

Unless one also runs a home theater system, it may not be worth the trouble. Cheaper AVRs do not have good room correction anyway. (I used to have a Marantz-based HT system.) Of course, if I had Trinnov I would be playing multi-channel music already. ;-)

 

[terryforsythe]

Many, many years ago I had a Rotel 20 W/channel integrated amp that probably cost in the mid $200 range pushing SpeakerCraft #4 speakers that were $480/pair, and it sounded wonderful. But technology has changed. I recently bought a MiniDSP SHD and Elac Uni-Fi Reference speakers, which both retail for $1200 (I got the Elacs factory refurbished for $900). I kept my decades old Adcom amp and Velodyne subwoofer, but with their original retail prices, I still have more money into my speaker system (the Velodyne was probably double the price of my amp). That being said, servo controlled subwoofers now can be found for much less than what I spent on the Velodyne.

 

[Holmz]

…
I think Dirac is more transparent about what is going on. RoomPerfect is more of a blackbox.

I could abide that statement, if one could actually expert the FIR taps from DIRAC.
As we cannot we only have a description of what is happening.
Dirac is not like other packages where one gets the FIR taps.

 

[curiouspeter]

I could abide that statement, if one could actually expert the FIR taps from DIRAC.
As we cannot we only have a description of what is happening.
Dirac is not like other packages where one gets the FIR taps.

But it at least shows you some curves, right? RP only gives a score.

 

[SDC]

Very true. But nobody had problems with all-in-ones being pricey AFAIK...

 

[dlaloum]

True, although some integrated amps are very capable.

The TDAI-3400 puts out 400W at 4 ohms. High current is no problem. Even my tiny TDAI-1120 is happy with 4 Ohms and below.

But at a price point which makes the seperation between integrated components and seperates a little bit moot!

My old Integra DTR 70.4 and Onkyo TX-SR876 handled my difficult low impedance speakers very well....

My current Integra DRX 3.4, absolutely does not (!!!) - but sounds fantastic with a pair of Crown XLS2500's (440W@8ohm, 1200W@2ohm) doing the heavy lifting....

 

[dlaloum]

Very true. But nobody had problems with all-in-ones being pricey AFAIK...

Look at amir's just completed review of the JBL SDR35.... it is pricey, but based on measurements, does not provide additional value over equivalent competitors costing multiples less (like 1/3rd or 1/4qtr the price!)

 

[curiouspeter]

But at a price point which makes the seperation between integrated components and seperates a little bit moot!

Much cheaper than some super-integrated like the Dan D'Agostino Progression, LOL. On the other hand, I can see that a miniDSP SHD connected to some Hypex nCore monoblocks can offer great value for the price.

With Class D amplification being so good nowadays, the case for having separate components is not as strong as before. It even makes sense to keep the signal in the digital domain for as long as possible. For instance, you can have a unified volume control that is available to streaming apps, DRC, remote control, and the physical knob.

Look at amir's just completed review of the JBL SDR35.... it is pricey, but based on measurements, does not provide additional value over equivalent competitors costing multiples less (like 1/3rd or 1/4qtr the price!)

In a non-blind A/B test, more expensive equipment will always sound better to an audiophile with golden ears. ;-)

 

[Holmz]

But it at least shows you some curves, right? RP only gives a score.

I suppose… but I could use REW to make a curve.
In either case neither RP, nor Dirac, give me the ability to get to the taps or the IIR settings, so I can retrieve the settings that they use.

 

[Peluvius]

Unless one also runs a home theater system, it may not be worth the trouble. Cheaper AVRs do not have good room correction anyway. (I used to have a Marantz-based HT system.) Of course, if I had Trinnov I would be playing multi-channel music already. ;-)

I agree with the weighting you give to Speaker/room correction (2:1) although this will also depend on the qualities of the room in question.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes AVR's are incredibly value - but they are also usually relatively "basic" amplifiers.

They typically have very limited current (power supply) capacity - and therefore work best with high efficiency, high impedance (8ohm) speakers

Speakers with crossovers or drivers that result in low impedances (eg: 4ohm or below - some speakers drop below 2ohm)

Many AVR's will self protect and either shut down or lower output when driven into 4 ohm speakers at high levels.

Having said that.... the AVR's are incredible value for money, and the internal amps are more than ample for surround and height speakers - so an ideal combination can often be achieved by using external amps to drive the "mains" (Front L / C / R) and let the AVR handle the other speakers.

This also means that many of us need to spend more for external amplifiers to provide the right speaker/amp combination for our own environment.

People who own 1ohm impedance Martin Logan or Acoustat speakers - need amplifiers with very robust current capabilities (your typical AVR is going to sound terrible into these - and likely to shut down to self protect!)

My own speakers have 3 ohm into the woofer, and 1.6 ohm into the tweeter.... sound terrible connected to the AVR, but sound great being driven through Crown XLS amps, which are fed by the AVR pre-outs.

There is definitely a place for amps above and beyond what is built into Integrated's and/or Receivers.

True enough. Then again many don't need more than a basic amplifier. Speakers that drop below 2 ohm I wouldn't even bother owning for the most part, and if I did have such speakers then a more capable amp would need to be purchased along with the speakers I'd think. I haven't had an issue with 4 ohm speakers with my various avrs but don't drive them to unreasonable levels either. I like pro amps for low impedance work myself, haven't found much in the way of consumer amps that are spec'd for such (at least at a reasonable price).

 

[dlaloum]

True enough. Then again many don't need more than a basic amplifier. Speakers that drop below 2 ohm I wouldn't even bother owning for the most part, and if I did have such speakers then a more capable amp would need to be purchased along with the speakers I'd think. I haven't had an issue with 4 ohm speakers with my various avrs but don't drive them to unreasonable levels either. I like pro amps for low impedance work myself, haven't found much in the way of consumer amps that are spec'd for such (at least at a reasonable price).

At the time I auditioned the speakers I now have, I was not aware of the Impedance issues - they are specced at "8ohm"

And various reviews, stated that they could be driven with relatively lightweight amps.

After their purchase there ensued years of experimentation.... The AVR I was using at the time had very robust power supply (the beast weighed 28kg) - and handled the speakers quite well!

Nevertheless - later review articles, measurements, seemed to indicate more was available from the speakers - period articles interviewing Anthony Gallo at various audio shows, mentioned the amp he was using for demos - the Spectron Musician.... (the brand is long gone now)
Seeking a power amp with similar specs to the Spectron, within my budget, led me to Pro amps, and in my case the Crown XLS series

I thought the Quad 606 would be my "forever" amp, ample power for any circumstance.... well, no, that turned out not to be the case!

You live, You learn.... match amp to speaker and speaker to amp...