IsoAcoustics Isolation Feet - Does it really make positive effect or fancy accessories

[kemmler3D]

Exactly. If they had even the most minute piece of real evidence to share, they would add it all over their ads instead of the usual BS romantic prose they use

Can confirm.

 

[Shorty]

[…]third, speakers. the mystical. my best effort and testing was using a single shelf dennse aluminum assembly/stand. and using flouraprene (not chloraprene) 80 durometer at .3 inch.

Did you perhaps mean ‘fluoroprene’?

 

[Shorty]

I guess we would have to do an ABX human subject study with adequate replication and controls to test your null hypothesis that Fremer and other audio equipment reviewers have average listening skills no better than the general population.

Time to whip out this always amusing diagram from Sean Olive, illustrating the listening skills of participants in the famous research done at Harman:

harman listening tests differences trained listeners at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[janbth]

As a supporter of science I am happy to admit that there remains some possibility, however slight, that there exist sonic qualities we can hear but somehow cannot be measured….

A comment about this, not just to @RexrothPigeon, but more generally: Hearing is measuring. The ears are measurement devices. You only need to set things up carefully, for instance using blind listening tests. If done with care, you will get reliable, reproducible results, with statistical significance. A «measurement» does not necessarily imply an «electronic» measurement device.

 

[knownothing]

A comment about this, not just to @RexrothPigeon, but more generally: Hearing is measuring. The ears are measurement devices. You only need to set things up carefully, for instance using blind listening tests. If done with care, you will get reliable, reproducible results, with statistical significance. A «measurement» does not necessarily imply an «electronic» measurement device.

“Done with care” is the trick, especially if one is trying to prove that there is something going on that is undetectable by standard and broadly accepted machine measuring techinques. And it turns out that trick in order to be unassailable requires very careful design and setup, many replicate “measurements”, and therefore is complicated, time consuming, and expensive.

One only needs to watch Amir’s merciless YouTube dressing down of Milind Kunchurs papers analyzing different interconnect cables to get a flavor of how any study that might crack the door even a little bit on audio measurement dogma will be treated here and other forums like Audioholics. These concepts and anyone who dares advance them without a locked down fault free subject approach will be received as a storming of the castle, so expect hot oil, arrows, musket fire and cannon balls in response to any challenging result, no matter how well designed and executed.

kn

 

[knownothing]

so far no-one has adequately demonstrated this.

I don’t disagree. See my post above.

 

[knownothing]

I suggest you just go and continue drinking the koolaid. You are so deep in it you can't even see how deep you are. Non of your arguments have any validity here.

Guilty. I used to think measurements and specifications for audio gear were the end of the story. This love affair with FR, power ratings and current delivery began in my teens and persisted for a couple decades.

During that period I trained as a scientist and forged a career collecting information on ships which required some rudimentary problem solving with electronics that got on the wrong end of a saltwater seal. About 20 years ago, I rekindled an interest in hifi and my empirical scientist training drove me to immediately start tinkering on the margins and tweaking everything from speaker platforms to different cable arrangements. What I learned is that some things work better than others and some things don’t work at all or make my system actually sound worse.

I am not rich, so a lot of this experimentation was jolly rigged and/or built on my work bench. While I am just as susceptible to marketing as the next person, my budget has meant that I am much more likely to build a cable from parts as going to a retailer and plopping down big money for something in a fancy box. If I do buy premade cables, they are almost always used.

The reason why I have persisted in this experimentation with cables and isolation solutions is that my empirical experience tells my that it is worth it and that certain combinations really enhance my listening experience. Not every new solution or design is a winner, and if fact some expensive designs turn out to be very disappointing. But the combination of gear, wires and purpose built listening room that I have now are quite satisfying, and way better than where I started twenty some years ago.

So I have drank a bunch of Kool-Aid and I have made a bunch of batches of Kool-Aid, and some of them tasted really bad, and some of them tasted pretty good. All of my hardware measures very well, but changing cables makes it sound different, and some of those changes make it sound better.

Occasionally, the different sonic properties correlate with measurable properties. In at least one case, a power cable I assembled from bulk copper cable manufactured by Furutech in Japan that is doped with silver a gold nano particles that I found sounded unusually dull with rhodium plated connectors, sounds completely different when fitted with silver plated AC connectors. I measure continuity, capacitance and resistance of every power cable I assemble out of curiosity and to assure they wont cause a short or start a fire. This “unicorn” cable has the lowest resistance (unmeasurable on my meter) and lowest capacitance between leads (eg. neutral to positive), and it sounds completely different to me on a digital front end than PCs with copper or rhodium connectors.

Most readers in this forum can stop there, but I will go on to report that this PC sounds much brighter, more forward with very tight bass. In many applications it is too much a a good thing, but the difference in sound coming out of any set of speakers hooked up to any amp and front end supplied by this cable is not subtle. In other instances, I can see no significant differences in resistance or capacitance that I can measure with my rudimentary multimeter, but to me, the different PC cable designs sound slightly different.

As a trained scientist, I have deep respect for methods and the importance of repeatability in order to verify an actual difference. But my empirical work with my own hifi systems is at odds with current dogma on cables and isolation devices/approaches as constantly defended here, and this leads me to believe there is something going on that our current measures and the time tested theories behind those measures.

I think we are measuring the wrong things, and the differences, if they exist, between the day to day performance of cables for example have to do with application of cable connections in complex hifi “systems”, and subtle differences in timing and fidelity of signal arrival across the frequency spectrum. This may be completely wrong, but I and many others are convinced something is going on here beyond marketing hype.

I have discussed this with different engineers I know, and those that work or have worked on military applications related to signal transfer and reception and who happen to be musicians are open to the possibility that more exotic cable design can alter the fidelity of how we experience music reproduction. Conversations I have had with mechanical engineers that also happen to be audiophiles elicit more mixed reactions.

I am under no illusion that my comments will change anyone’s mind. A start would be an effectively designed subjects study with adequate controls and replication. That will be time consuming and expensive, but I might try to pull one together when I retire. Until someone does that, enjoy the music.

kn

 

[Mort]

The reason why I have persisted in this experimentation with cables and isolation solutions is that my empirical experience

This sounds like ego talking maybe? Trust in yourself even when theory and overwhelming data says otherwise?

It might be the same that thinks we want to read a post that long.

 

[Mort]

Back to the topic?

There was a (prototype) version of the Philharmonic Audio BMR monitors that had Gaia isolation feet built into them. I was trying to hunt down a photo. Maybe @alexis knows if such a photo exists?

 

[GabrielPhoto]

This sounds like ego talking maybe? Trust in yourself even when theory and overwhelming data says otherwise?

It might be the same that thinks we want to read a post that long.

yep

 

[knownothing]

Trust in yourself even when theory and overwhelming data says otherwise?

Or, are we consistently measuring the number of entrants in a race and the colors of their jerseys when what actually matters is determining when they finish.

 

[MAB]

Guilty. I used to think measurements and specifications for audio gear were the end of the story. This love affair with FR, power ratings and current delivery began in my teens and persisted for a couple decades.

During that period I trained as a scientist and forged a career collecting information on ships which required some rudimentary problem solving with electronics that got on the wrong end of a saltwater seal. About 20 years ago, I rekindled an interest in hifi and my empirical scientist training drove me to immediately start tinkering on the margins and tweaking everything from speaker platforms to different cable arrangements. What I learned is that some things work better than others and some things don’t work at all or make my system actually sound worse.

I am not rich, so a lot of this experimentation was jolly rigged and/or built on my work bench. While I am just as susceptible to marketing as the next person, my budget has meant that I am much more likely to build a cable from parts as going to a retailer and plopping down big money for something in a fancy box. If I do buy premade cables, they are almost always used.

The reason why I have persisted in this experimentation with cables and isolation solutions is that my empirical experience tells my that it is worth it and that certain combinations really enhance my listening experience. Not every new solution or design is a winner, and if fact some expensive designs turn out to be very disappointing. But the combination of gear, wires and purpose built listening room that I have now are quite satisfying, and way better than where I started twenty some years ago.

So I have drank a bunch of Kool-Aid and I have made a bunch of batches of Kool-Aid, and some of them tasted really bad, and some of them tasted pretty good. All of my hardware measures very well, but changing cables makes it sound different, and some of those changes make it sound better.

Occasionally, the different sonic properties correlate with measurable properties. In at least one case, a power cable I assembled from bulk copper cable manufactured by Furutech in Japan that is doped with silver a gold nano particles that I found sounded unusually dull with rhodium plated connectors, sounds completely different when fitted with silver plated AC connectors. I measure continuity, capacitance and resistance of every power cable I assemble out of curiosity and to assure they wont cause a short or start a fire. This “unicorn” cable has the lowest resistance (unmeasurable on my meter) and lowest capacitance between leads (eg. neutral to positive), and it sounds completely different to me on a digital front end than PCs with copper or rhodium connectors.

Most readers in this forum can stop there, but I will go on to report that this PC sounds much brighter, more forward with very tight bass. In many applications it is too much a a good thing, but the difference in sound coming out of any set of speakers hooked up to any amp and front end supplied by this cable is not subtle. In other instances, I can see no significant differences in resistance or capacitance that I can measure with my rudimentary multimeter, but to me, the different PC cable designs sound slightly different.

As a trained scientist, I have deep respect for methods and the importance of repeatability in order to verify an actual difference. But my empirical work with my own hifi systems is at odds with current dogma on cables and isolation devices/approaches as constantly defended here, and this leads me to believe there is something going on that our current measures and the time tested theories behind those measures.

I think we are measuring the wrong things, and the differences, if they exist, between the day to day performance of cables for example have to do with application of cable connections in complex hifi “systems”, and subtle differences in timing and fidelity of signal arrival across the frequency spectrum. This may be completely wrong, but I and many others are convinced something is going on here beyond marketing hype.

I have discussed this with different engineers I know, and those that work or have worked on military applications related to signal transfer and reception and who happen to be musicians are open to the possibility that more exotic cable design can alter the fidelity of how we experience music reproduction. Conversations I have had with mechanical engineers that also happen to be audiophiles elicit more mixed reactions.

I am under no illusion that my comments will change anyone’s mind. A start would be an effectively designed subjects study with adequate controls and replication. That will be time consuming and expensive, but I might try to pull one together when I retire. Until someone does that, enjoy the music.

kn

Nice manifesto.
In summary, you are here to troll the place.
Good job.

 

[Mort]

Or, are we consistently measuring the number of entrants in a race and the colors of their jerseys when what actually matters is determining when they finish.

Your analogy lost me. fyi It's rarely a good argument when it needs a sports analogy for it's defense.

Nonetheless, let's examine your finish line. Are you measuring something we aren't? The finish line CAN be measured, even if we aren't doing it. So please show me the criteria for 'finishing' that isn't just your personal preference? You'll say 'musicality' but that can't be measured and you remain in the face of overwhelming data and foundational scientific theory.

My dad needed to believe in cables and tubes because the brands he bought were very important for his identity and ego.

 

[DVinylfan]

I use rubber sucker feet screwed into the bases of my tower speakers to interface with a smooth wood floor.

 

[DVDdoug]

Hearing is measuring. The ears are measurement devices.

Normally a measurement device indicates units-of-measure. dB, Hz, inches, volts, kilograms, miles-per-hour, etc.

We might be able approximate or estimate "measurements" with our ears (or eyes or other senses) but they are lousy compared to actual (proper/appropriate) instruments.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I think we are measuring the wrong things, and the differences, if they exist, between the day to day performance of cables for example have to do with application of cable connections in complex hifi “systems”, and subtle differences in timing and fidelity of signal arrival across the frequency spectrum

We are not measuring the wrong things.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You've stated claims, so now supply the evidence, please.

If you can't, we will stick with more than a hundred years of reliable research and results, thanks.

 

[janbth]

Normally a measurement device indicates units-of-measure. dB, Hz, inches, volts, kilograms, miles-per-hour, etc.

We might be able approximate or estimate "measurements" with our ears (or eyes or other senses) but they are lousy compared to actual (proper/appropriate) instruments.

You have a point. Measurement devices usually has a way to quantify the result of a measurement. But my guess is that one could accomplish something similar when the ears are the measurement device too, if the experimental setup has a proper design. I have to think about that…

 

[MarkS]

Occasionally, the different sonic properties correlate with measurable properties. In at least one case, a power cable I assembled from bulk copper cable manufactured by Furutech in Japan that is doped with silver a gold nano particles that I found sounded unusually dull with rhodium plated connectors, sounds completely different when fitted with silver plated AC connectors. I measure continuity, capacitance and resistance of every power cable I assemble out of curiosity and to assure they wont cause a short or start a fire. This “unicorn” cable has the lowest resistance (unmeasurable on my meter) and lowest capacitance between leads (eg. neutral to positive), and it sounds completely different to me on a digital front end than PCs with copper or rhodium connectors.

This claim is testable. You would need a research partner to help out. Once a day (or week or whatever), the partner plugs in either the unicorn power cable or a second cable that you believe sounds different, flipping a coin to decide which, and writing down in a notebook which it is that day. The partner then covers the cable with a towel or something so that you cannot tell which is in the system by sight. Then you listen for as long as you like, and decide which cable is in use. Write it down in a separate notebook. Rinse and repeat for at least 20 days (or whatever). Then compare notebooks.

If you get it right more than 3/4 of the time in 20 or more such trials, our interest in further investigation will be piqued.

 

[antcollinet]

Nice manifesto.
In summary, you are here to troll the place.
Good job.

Time to stop feeding I think.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

You only need to set things up carefully, for instance using blind listening tests.

"only" lol
I mean, you're right, but there's a reason there are so few blind listening tests conducted: to do it right requires a lot of time and effort (and, let's be real: funding).