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Is this what is wrong with this hobby?

JJB70

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So what was the deal with all that? Did they rort all the money and disappear without shipping a product?
I'm really not sure what happened, but it looks like the project is dead. From what I gather they shipped a few pre-production units and then it all just stopped. Apparently they lost key people and battened down the hatches. I'm guessing those who know the real story are tight lipped and the stories floating around the Internet are more hearsay than fact. Mark Waldrep has written about it on his RealHD site but he is not divulging much (maybe he doesn't know anything to divulge). I found it very sad as it was a very promising technology, but presumably others will pick the basic principles up and implement them.
 
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Way to avoid "tiring": Have solid evidence to support extraordinary claims.
I don't think general subjective opinions given in an informal setting require the the 3rd degree treatment nor testing times some people seem to demand.

I enjoy the tweaking, listening, relaxing part of this hobby not the ABX/Time trials/Statistical significance result breakdown.

I'm down with measurements and understanding the science behind it, I just do not enjoy nor have high opinions of the user listening Test aspect of it that some people demand before they will allow anyone to even hint at conveying subjective opinions about normal listening experiences.
 
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sergeauckland

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What's wrong with this hobby, or indeed any hobby, is the lack of critical thinking. The acceptance of any old guff, whether in a magazine or on a forum, without any proof or even evidence being put forward, just opinion.

Science, technology and mathematics are not a matter of opinion.


S
 

JJB70

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Audio gear is a tool, it exists to facilitate the enjoyment of sound (music, spoken word or other things, I have a friend who listens to recordings of piston aero engines). It is about music, not equipment. I have reached a point where although I still love the likes of Accuphase equipment I am happy with my tablet as a source feeding my headphones or my active digital speakers, or using my early 90's Sony CD player and amplifier if I want to play CDs. I am accumulating a few blu ray audio discs which I play with my Sony universal disc player via (shudder....a sound bar) and I am entirely happy with the music I listen to.
 
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What's wrong with this hobby, or indeed any hobby, is the lack of critical thinking. The acceptance of any old guff, whether in a magazine or on a forum, without any proof or even evidence being put forward, just opinion.

Science, technology and mathematics are not a matter of opinion.


S
I mean isn't a Hobby supposed to be fun and enjoyable? The criteria you seem to put out would make it a Job/Career
 

SIY

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I don't think general subjective opinions given in an informal setting require the the 3rd degree treatment nor testing times some people seem to demand.

I enjoy the tweaking, listening, relaxing part of this hobby not the ABX/Time trials/Statistical significance result breakdown.

I'm down with measurements and understanding the science behind if I just do not enjoy nor have high opinions of the user listening Test aspect of it that some people demand before they will allow anyone to even hint at conveying subjective opinions about normal listening experiences.
Well, I'd avoid any forum with the word "science" in it, then. :cool:

That's how science works- make a claim, it needs evidence. Especially extraordinary claims.
 
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Well, I'd avoid any forum with the word "science" in it, then. :cool:

That's how science works- make a claim, it needs evidence. Especially extraordinary claims.
Why? I like the science of audio, like equipment design, measurements of the equipment etc.

But the example of "extraordinary" claims sure seems to have an escalating/loose definition in this hobby. Some seems to apply that to anything that varies from "everything I tried sounded the exact same".

I also don't particularly agree with the "evidence" in a test environment can be applied to anyone\anything outside the test environment especially when dealing with people as the test subjects.

Measuring equipment? yep love that part of the hobby, Measuring a persons ability to perform in an auido "test" and then trying to apply that to people/equipment/source material outside of the test or exact parameters of that test? It's bunk and I hate when people try and do that.
 
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Simply say hey I bought this Cable/DAC/Transport and thought it sounded really good with these subjective qualities compared to my other Cable/Dac/Transport can literally bring out hoards of harassment I have found in many places, and it just gets really tiring
I'm not sure you're going to have any luck with these kinds of posts on this forum.

To me it gets tiring to see people making these kinds of claims. How are you supposed to respond to that? Seriously, if someone says "Oh I changed my cable to this other one and it opened up the sound stage and improved the bass so much!", responding to them is the exact same as responding to someone who says, "Guys, I bought these rocks and put it in my trunk and they improved my MPG by 2x!! This hobby of finding MPG rocks is the best!". You can't have a conversation with someone who is fully immersed in a personal delusion.

The purpose of this forum(and, imo, any good internet audio forum) is to try and figure out what genuinely improves audio, in a repeatable manner, and what doesn't. If you treat it like a hobby where anything goes and it's all just whatever seems subjectively best to you, that's fine. But what's the point of discussing that on a forum? Your subjective impressions and mine have no common ground without the science. It doesn't mean anything. It's like two philosophers having a conversation without having agreed upon their assumptions at the start. Without an accepted context, there cannot be a productive conversation. The scientific research is this forum's accepted context.

That doesn't mean anyone is accepting the science without question, heck, we have many threads 10s of pages long where people question and discuss the science, where it has holes and how to actually apply it to speaker building and room correction and all sorts of other endeavours to improve their audio experience in their home. That is people enjoying the hobby. You can ignore the delusional parts of the audiophile hobby and still have fun with the parts that are actually supported by research. It's still just as fun, I assure you. Possibly even more fun ;)
 
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I'm not sure you're going to have any luck with these kinds of posts on this forum.

To me it gets tiring to see people making these kinds of claims. How are you supposed to respond to that? Seriously, if someone says "Oh I changed my cable to this other one and it opened up the sound stage and improved the bass so much!", responding to them is the exact same as responding to someone who says, "Guys, I bought these rocks and put it in my trunk and they improved my MPG by 2x!! This hobby of finding MPG rocks is the best!". You can't have a conversation with someone who is fully immersed in a personal delusion.

The purpose of this forum(and, imo, any good internet audio forum) is to try and figure out what genuinely improves audio, in a repeatable manner, and what doesn't. If you treat it like a hobby where anything goes and it's all just whatever seems subjectively best to you, that's fine. But what's the point of discussing that on a forum? Your subjective impressions and mine have no common ground without the science. It doesn't mean anything. It's like two philosophers having a conversation without having agreed upon their assumptions at the start. Without an accepted context, there cannot be a productive conversation. The scientific research is this forum's accepted context.

That doesn't mean anyone is accepting the science without question, heck, we have many threads 10s of pages long where people question and discuss the science, where it has holes and how to actually apply it to speaker building and room correction and all sorts of other endeavours to improve their audio experience in their home. That is people enjoying the hobby. You can ignore the delusional parts of the audiophile hobby and still have fun with the parts that are actually supported by research. It's still just as fun, I assure you. Possibly even more fun ;)
In my 35 years of this hobby I have found much more value from reading real users subjective experience with equipment and source material then tons of pages of people arguing over the proper way to handle an ABX test and why any positive results are bunk and how people should really be conducting these tests. I can certainly gather various consensus in reading multiple subjective opinions of equipment/source material while reading 20 people got Null results in an ABX tests leave me nothing. I've seen 99% of ABX produce Null results and that is the exact value they have to me , Null, why does this ONE aspect of the audio hobby have to push it's way into every corner of it while their are alot of other aspects of it that can be done in a scientific manner?

Why can't people enjoy the technical and science in this hobby without having to hang their hat on the more disruptive human test procedures of the hobby?

And I still enjoy the engineering science behind the equipment, reading stat sheets and how the equipment performed in tests.

Just because I do not value one small but highly vocal piece of this hobby doesn't mean I don't enjoy other aspects of the science behind audio.
 

sergeauckland

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In my 35 years of this hobby I have found much more value from reading real users subjective experience with equipment and source material then tons of pages of people arguing over the proper way to handle an ABX test and why any positive results are bunk and how people should really be conducting these tests. I can certainly gather various consensus in reading multiple subjective opinions of equipment/source material while reading 20 people got Null results in an ABX tests leave me nothing. I've seen 99% of ABX produce Null results and that is the exact value they have to me , Null, why does this ONE aspect of the audio hobby have to push it's way into every corner of it while their are alot of other aspects of it that can be done in a scientific manner?

Why can't people enjoy the technical and science in this hobby without having to hang their hat on the more disruptive human test procedures of the hobby?

And I still enjoy the engineering science behind the equipment, reading stat sheets and how the equipment performed in tests.

Just because I do not value one small but highly vocal piece of this hobby doesn't mean I don't enjoy other aspects of the science behind audio.
Doesn't the 99% null result tell you something? To me it says that indeed most things which audiophiles claim to be different actually aren't.

S
 

Killingbeans

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Wells that's what I think is wrong with this hobby, to much harassment of opinions and not enough leeway for enjoyment and to many time others try to tell you what you hear and what biases you have based on some unrelated null tests that you did not participate in and have nothing to do with the equipment you own.
People who just wants to see the world burn find their way to both ends of the spectrum. You have to filter them out. Are they basing their statements on experience and understanding or are they simply howling with the pack? That's the question you have to ask yourself each time you feel harassed. It's really easy to put everyone in the latter category, but that will just end up making you numb to the real world.

You can't fight an extreme by jumping on the opposite train. It's all about finding a nice balance between being playful and inquisitive.

There's no denying that there's A LOT of snake oil in the audio hobby, and sure, you can use the "as long as it makes people happy" argument, but picture this:

Some shady guy persuades your old grandma to hand over her entire pension in exchange for a "magic" sticker that he claims will make her happy if she puts it on her forehead. She puts it on and becomes really happy (solely because she expects to become so). Do you just go: "It's okay. She's happy! Live and let live.", or do you make sure his ass is thrown in jail?

EDIT: I thought I had an idea of what swanlee was trying to say, but reading through some more of this thread I realize that I'm at a complete loss :confused:
 
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Doesn't the 99% null result tell you something? To me it says that indeed most things which audiophiles claim to be different actually aren't.

S
No it tells me people suck at these tests and our short term audio memory doesn't work well in these scenarios and these tests Null out actual real differences that appear in normal longer term listening conditions.

People fail these tests comparing things have have clear measurable differences in the audible spectrum. People just are not good at them and these are very different scenarios than normal listening conditions.

I don't like applying test results for one scenario and one group of people to other scenario's and other groups of people. I see that done a lot in these situations and that to me is pretty unscientific.
 

sergeauckland

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No it tells me people suck at these tests and our short term audio memory doesn't work well in these scenarios and these tests Null out actual real differences that appear in normal longer term listening conditions.

People fail these tests comparing things have have clear measurable differences in the audible spectrum.
Clearly measurable isn't always clearly audible. The null result so often obtained shows that.

S
 
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So how do you explain that "these tests" give positive results for things like minuscule differences in level, frequency response, pitch, and localization? People only suck selectively?
These are things people are much more sensitive to with short term audio memory. Most ABX tests try and neutralize these aspects and literally try and make the signals sound as similar as possible and utterly confuse people in short burst switch situations and then abstract their short term audible memory to X and when a null results happens try and apply that to everything and everyone.

This is the part that bothers me, don't apply those tests to people and equipment that were not involved in the test and don't apply the results to anything outside of the exact test parameters. A Null result is just that and when people try and apply it to anything else that to me is very unscientific.

These types of test are not testing the equipment they are testing peoples ability to deal with this parituclar type of test. As Amir pointing out before in the high res test he did back in 2014 once he picked something out he could detect differences reliably. It pretty much took some skill and training to handle these tests most people were not good enough or trained enough in those test scenario's.

Detecting differences in an ABX scenario has no relevance to detecting differences in normal listening conditions
 
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