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Is this what is wrong with this hobby?

Apesbrain

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His Soundstream car amps are still regarded as some of the best ever made.
That's interesting. Best car system I ever owned was a Soundstream cassette head-end and amps with Boston Acoustics speakers in a Saab 900T.
 

Sal1950

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Are you talking about the push for 'Quadraphonic' sound in the 70's, or have the industry tried to recycle that "great" idea again in recent times?
No. I was referring to discrete lossless multichannel as offered on SACD, DVD-A, BluRay-Audio and downloaded files.
I agree with Kal, we were both referring to the modern "push" in 5.1 surround that started with the more recently developed optical disk formats. A few of the newer BluRay' releases of older discreet multich recordings are including the original 4.0 master from the quad days plus the modern remaster in 5.1. I have BD's of Pink Floyd's WYWH & DSOTHM that include 2.0 stereo, 4.0 quad and 5.1 masters on the same disc. You can compare the different mastering with just a push of the Audio button on your disc's remote..
Then with an additional button push on my Pre/Pro's remote, I can upmix the multch source to include immersive playback with the 4 overhead speakers using either Dolby Surround, DTS Master X Neural, or Auro 3D DSP processing. :)
Chooses are good!
 
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Ron Texas

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Multi channel has its problems. Its expensive and complex to have all the gear. Not enough people appreciate the difference. I wonder if there is a better, simpler way to do it, say with just a third active, wireless speaker in the rear and a processor between DAC and the mains, or whatever.
 

JJB70

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I was hoping to try the Yarra 3DX sound bar as if that had lived up to the claims made for it (including from Mark Waldrep who is neither a BS merchant nor a snake oil sales man) then it could have been an ideal solution to grow multi-channel. But it all went horribly wrong for Yarra. That said there are now low hassle options to pair up sound bars and wireless speakers for true multi-channel.
 

Sal1950

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Multi channel has its problems. Its expensive and complex to have all the gear. Not enough people appreciate the difference. I wonder if there is a better, simpler way to do it, say with just a third active, wireless speaker in the rear and a processor between DAC and the mains, or whatever.
Sure, the way folks been doing it for many years. Use a Dolby Logic circuit to pull out a ambience signal and then sent it over Bluetooth or something similar to that rear speaker or two.
But if you want discreet channel decoding of the various formats it gets a little tougher.
No easy stairway to heaven. ;)
 

SIY

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It's not clear that classic discrete is the way to go, either. I'm aware that it was a massive commercial failure, but I have to say that Ambisonics was the closest I ever got to "OMG, I'M THERE!!!"
 

Sal1950

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but I have to say that Ambisonics was the closest I ever got
The object oriented immersive formats like Atmos are similar to the Ambisonics approach.
Must say I've never heard it in use.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Multi channel has its problems. Its expensive and complex to have all the gear. Not enough people appreciate the difference. I wonder if there is a better, simpler way to do it, say with just a third active, wireless speaker in the rear and a processor between DAC and the mains, or whatever.
Simpler but grossly inferior.
This attitude always surprises me that, on audio forums like these, people obsessively pursue audible improvements in their stereo systems but immediately think of shortcuts for multichannel. If you won't commit to it, fine. Otherwise, do it right.
 
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swanlee

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I think people in this hobby would be better off if they just purchased what they thought was a value to them and stopped being on a crusade to mock and tear down high end audio and people who enjoy the hobby.

I find on many audio forums their are so many people crying "snake oil" and insisting others can't possibly find enjoyment in high end gear they come off as combative.

Do people troll Rolex forums and tell people that enjoy those watches that they are wasting their time and money?
Or how about high end auto? Or high end Fashion?

Diminishing returns is certainly a real thing but some of the enjoyment of this hobby can be trying to squeeze out every bit of Audio quality out of a given system.
 

SIY

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When Rolex starts making claims that it tells time more accurately than electronic watches or that it will make your reflexes faster, yeah, they'll get criticized.

Snake oil claims deserve every bit of exposure and ridicule they can get, as well as the hucksters peddling them.
 

swanlee

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When Rolex starts making claims that it tells time more accurately than electronic watches or that it will make your reflexes faster, yeah, they'll get criticized.

Snake oil claims deserve every bit of exposure and ridicule they can get, as well as the hucksters peddling them.

People claim snake oil for everything, everything sounds the same, you can't possibly hear difference in anything, to the point where people get harrased for even giving subjective opinions about what they thought of a device/cable/high res album.

The Snake oil/ABX/Everything sounds the same crowd has gotten way out of hand.
 

SIY

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People claim snake oil for everything, everything sounds the same, you can't possibly hear difference in anything, to the point where people get harrased for even giving subjective opinions about what they thought of a device/cable/high res album.

The Snake oil/ABX/Everything sounds the same crowd has gotten way out of hand.

Careful, that strawman could be a fire hazard.
 

swanlee

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Careful, that strawman could be a fire hazard.

Wells that's what I think is wrong with this hobby, to much harassment of opinions and not enough leeway for enjoyment and to many time others try to tell you what you hear and what biases you have based on some unrelated null tests that you did not participate in and have nothing to do with the equipment you own.
 

SIY

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If you talk BS, you'll be called on it. Why is that a problem? If taking a rational and evidence-based approach is offensive to you, you're going to have a rough time around here.:D
 

swanlee

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If you talk BS, you'll be called on it. Why is that a problem? If taking a rational and evidence-based approach is offensive to you, you're going to have a rough time around here.:D

I'm not exactly talking about this particular forum but what I think is wrong with the Hobby and thing I've experienced in pretty much every internet venue talking about audio. Just responding to the subject of this thread.

Simply say hey I bought this Cable/DAC/Transport and thought it sounded really good with these subjective qualities compared to my other Cable/Dac/Transport can literally bring out hoards of harassment I have found in many places, and it just gets really tiring
 

cjfrbw

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Masochist: "Beat Me, Beat Me!"

Sadist: "No."
 

RayDunzl

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I think people in this hobby would be better off if they just purchased what they thought was a value to them and stopped being on a crusade to mock and tear down high end audio and people who enjoy the hobby.

That's me, with rare product exceptions. I don't bash people, not worth the trouble, and they probably enjoy it.

$17,000 for a short USB Cable, anyone?

Diminishing returns is certainly a real thing but some of the enjoyment of this hobby can be trying to squeeze out every bit of Audio quality out of a given system.

That's me, too.

Buy it, make it work, figure out what might make it work better, think about it for a while more.

I've got a little bit of stuff in the morgue, but the Buy and Hold philosophy usually works well enough.

Simply say hey I bought this Cable/DAC/Transport and thought it sounded really good with these subjective qualities compared to my other Cable/Dac/Transport can literally bring out hoards of harassment I have found in many places, and it just gets really tiring

It's text on a screen. I know how I deal with it.
 

jsrtheta

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People claim snake oil for everything, everything sounds the same, you can't possibly hear difference in anything, to the point where people get harrased for even giving subjective opinions about what they thought of a device/cable/high res album.

The Snake oil/ABX/Everything sounds the same crowd has gotten way out of hand.

That's because in audio, more than any other field I can think of that doesn't involve claims of the supernatural, abounds in snake oil. And your Rolex analogy isn't entirely apt. The better question would be, do people on Roelx forums claim that attaching magic stones to them will increase accuracy? The answer, obviously, is no. But such claims have been made, and continue to be made, with regard to audio.

And something else you said gives me pause: Yes, people do try to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their systems. But that makes many of them vulnerable to snake oil claims. I am sure I am not alone on this forum in having the experience of falling for this nonsense when we first got into this hobby. Indeed, manufacturers of snake oil rely on the credulity and insecurity of audio purchasers, and exploit it to market overpriced, worthless junk. I spent a lot of money before being cured. And I could afford it at the time. I have seen people who couldn't go close to broke. So I say anyone who debunks such claims deserves a medal or two.

As for the tone on this forum, yeah, it can get snarky. I am certainly guilty of that myself, and I'm a repeat offender. A solution, of course, is to ignore and skip over any posts I put up. I won't know, and won't care. But I take your point. And I would note that on every audio forum I've ever visited, you will find this. Nature of the internet.
 
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