Is there such thing as sitting too close to speakers?

[mushjoon]

First of all, I would like to thank everyone in this website. I'm definitely learning a lot from all of your advice and posts.

Sorry for bothering you with more newbie question but can you sit TOO CLOSE to your monitor speakers (Polk R200 to be specific)?

I've been watching videos on YouTube and it seems like there are some general "rules" that I should follow:
1) You should keep at least about 1ft (30cm approx.) distance from your speaker to the front wall.
2) You want to keep equal distance between your speakers and the side walls.

The maximum distance from the front wall to my ears is 120cm. (The bed cannot be moved)
So, while following the 2 rules above, 120 - 30 (1ft) - 35 (approx depth of Polk R200) = 55cm.

My speakers would be only 55cm away from my ears and the distance between the speakers would be 55cm too.

If I follow the general recommendation of keeping the equilateral triangle between me and the speakers like the Diagram 1, I have no other choice but to keep both monitors super close to each other, thus sacrificing stereo imaging effect (if I'm correct).

However, if I separate two speakers apart more from each other, I might be able to enjoy stereo effect more than the Diagram 1, but now the triangle has changed into an isosceles triangle, not equilateral. Moreover, I don't know what kind of negative effect this will bring.

TLDR: What speaker placement is better for mixing music? Diagram 1 or Diagram 2?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Sit on the bed.

 

[abdo123]

not with bookshelves or speakers with few drivers. but the closer to your ears the more the experience will sound like really good headphones (ratio of direct to reflected sound would be very high) and many might argue that's a very good thing to have.

 

[BoredErica]

Genelec and Neumann both have minimum listening distance recommendations for their speakers, and they tend to get larger the larger the speaker is (for example, kh80 vs kh120). This doesn't really apply to Genelec coaxials of course, which have a near minimum listening distance on their site.

Personally I sit close to my monitor, if I place speakers on both side of my monitor then the distance between then is larger than the distance from a speaker to me. There's no way for me to fix this and still have an equilateral triangle AFAIK. The proportions are just impossible unless I have speaker path to my ears partially covered by my monitor. So, I'm surprised option 1 works for you without the speakers being in front of the screen, though if you sit farther back I suppose it can work just fine.

I have resigned myself to option 2.

 

[Inner Space]

However, if I separate two speakers apart more from each other, I might be able to enjoy stereo effect more than the Diagram 1, but now the triangle has changed into an isosceles triangle, not equilateral. Moreover, I don't know what kind of negative effect this will bring.

There's no law or science or physics that says an equilateral triangle is necessary or desirable. I don't know why it's considered a default. My personal default is a 45-90-45 isosceles - and for leisure listening, go wider still, as long as the center image is maintained. Try some variations, and let us know how you get on.

 

[gsp1971]

Sit on the bed.

that's right !! sit on the bed, move the speakers 2m apart and create a 2 x 2 x 2m equilateral triangle and enjoy.

 

[Shefffield]

I'd say, the more uniform the directivity of your speakers is, the closer you can sit to them. If there's a relatively large distance between tweeter and woofer or mid, the directivity pattern won't be so good. Small shifts in the position of your head will cause audible differences. The distance I am referring to is of course meant in relation to the crossover frequency between the drivers.

A coaxial driver might be ideal for your situation.

 

[Godataloss]

I'd put the speakers on the short wall to increase the listening distance.

 

[dasdoing]

There's no law or science or physics that says an equilateral triangle is necessary or desirable. I don't know why it's considered a default. My personal default is a 45-90-45 isosceles

the problem is that the phantom center suffers. does you phantom center sound like a 3rd speaker?

 

[Inner Space]

the problem is that the phantom center suffers. does you phantom center sound like a 3rd speaker?

Yes, it does, absolutely discrete and rock solid, exactly like a separate center channel would, even in a shallow 40-100-40 triangle. But I choose speakers based on this ability, so your result might be different.

 

[abdo123]

But I choose speakers based on this ability.

How?

 

[AnalogSteph]

I'd say, the more uniform the directivity of your speakers is, the closer you can sit to them. If there's a relatively large distance between tweeter and woofer or mid, the directivity pattern won't be so good. Small shifts in the position of your head will cause audible differences.

The important point here is that it's the vertical directivity that is critical. And even those plots are generated at something like 2 m.

Speakers with non-coincident drivers always have a minimum distance at which integration falls apart (as vertical angles to woofer and tweeter increasingly diverge). How bad it is is going to depend on factors like crossover frequency and order.

Here are the speakers in question:

W-T distance is nothing out of the ordinary, but XO at 3 kHz is on the higher side... a KRK RP7 G4 of similar dimensions crosses over at 2.04 kHz (at presumably at least 4th order... DSP).

BTW, my main concern with this room would be: Where do you fit any other furniture, and how do you get in the door? At 7 m², it is even smaller than the rooms I used to have as a kid (and was struggling to place any loudspeakers in at all, with such fun placement options as on top of cabinets). I would also recommend some thick drapes for the window over the bed. At those dimensions (2.80 x 2.50 x ~2.30-2.40 m?), I assume room modes are going to be much fun as well.

 

[Inner Space]

How?

Sorry ... I meant I choose them based on their ability to establish stable and solid phantom images. There are two attributes I look for - inert cabinets with no local noise, and super-close pair matching. Then, listening on axis, I play mono pink noise through both, and listen for a sharp, blade-thin vertical center image. If it's satisfactory, I make the listening triangle shallower and shallower, until the blade-thin image begins to blur. The effect is the illusion of a huge 3D stage in front of me, full of separate sonic images, with me just on the front edge of it.

But note, I like non-environment listening rooms, which are essential to truly good imaging, in my experience.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Personally I sit close to my monitor, if I place speakers on both side of my monitor then the distance between then is larger than the distance from a speaker to me.

What size monitor? I have a 32" monitor and find that the placement of my KH120A on each side is pretty close to perfect.

On the flip side, I will not be getting a larger monitor (e.g. a curved 34") for this very reason. And equally, my second (and eventually third) monitor are placed on the "outside" of the side monitors using an Ergotron mounting arm. As a side note, an advantage of using the Ergotron arms is that I can easily swing the secondary monitors far away from the speakers to remove any issue of first-order reflection when I am doing critical listening (vs. when I am working away and just have "background" music, zoom calls, etc.).

 

[BoredErica]

What size monitor? I have a 32" monitor and find that the placement of my KH120A on each side is pretty close to perfect.

On the flip side, I will not be getting a larger monitor (e.g. a curved 34") for this very reason. And equally, my second (and eventually third) monitor are placed on the "outside" of the side monitors using an Ergotron mounting arm. As a side note, an advantage of using the Ergotron arms is that I can easily swing the secondary monitors far away from the speakers to remove any issue of first-order reflection when I am doing critical listening (vs. when I am working away and just have "background" music, zoom calls, etc.).

27in monitor, maybe around 19in away from monitor or so.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

27in monitor, maybe around 19in away from monitor or so.

With 27" monitor, the speaker's center-to-center distance is likely ~34" (with my 32" monitor, the distance is 37" center to center).

Your mileage may vary... but for me, the distances work very well and fall right in line with the KH120A recommendations. Here is my experience with 32" monitor:

• When I am browsing, doing email, social media, general works, etc. (i.e., not working very intently, and thus also not critically listening), my nose is typically about 22" to 23" from screen and my ears are about 28" from the screen. In which case, the distance from each ear to the middle of the speaker is about 31". Stereo imaging is pretty solid.
• When I am kicking back a bit with emphasis on listening to the music (and perhaps still browsing, social media, etc.), I tend to lean back a bit in my chair so that my nose is more like 24" to 25" from the screen; and each ear is about 35" to 40" from middle of the respective speaker. Stereo imaging is really good.
• And when I am really, really into just listening, then I push my chair back even further where distance is even greater; and then simply move forward / backward a bit based on optimal imaging of the particular artist.

I just listened through a range of tracks, testing at the various differences. Definitely variations in the sound stage; but to me, there were minor and not that drastic for most of the music. In fact, I was pretty surprised how solid the stereo imaging was when my nose was only about 10" from the monitor.

A few other notes that may affect your mileage:

• My desk is 32" deep, allowing for added natural distance from the speakers to my ears. The solution with a smaller desk would be drop down to smaller speakers (e.g., KH80) and add a subwoofer.
• I was originally worried about moving from 27" to 32". I think 27" might be slightly better from a speaker-to-speaker distance; but I really have no complaints with a 32" monitor setup.
• A benefit of the 32" is that I can "zoom" the text so that it is much easier for me to read from a larger distance (and still have enough text on the screen to be useful). But equally, having a higher resolution monitor (e.g., 3270x1068 at 150% resolution) helps a lot on that front as well.

Others have a more golden ear than I do; so others may have a different view of how well desktop near-field music is for their situation.

 

[Trell]

Minimum listening distance depends on the speaker and should be listed in it’s manual.

For me on my desktop the Genelec 8340 would be too close so I got the 8330, aside that the 8340 is also much bigger.

Below you can see recommended minimum listening distance for their monitors.

 

[Inner Space]

Wouldn't that make you more off axis and decrease accuracy?

No, because you toe the speakers in at an appropriate angle, so the listening position is directly on axis. Which in a reflective room also has the advantage of lengthening reflection paths, so that later reflections are dominant, not early reflections, which is generally considered a good idea.

 

[luft262]

No, because you toe the speakers in at an appropriate angle, so the listening position is directly on axis. Which in a reflective room also has the advantage of lengthening reflection paths, so that later reflections are dominant, not early reflections, which is generally considered a good idea.

After responding I realized what you meant. Well said.

 

[audio2920]

If you've not already got the polk's, as someone else mentioned, I do think a dual concentric / co-axial might be a better choice for ultra-nearfield...?

Regardless of speaker, I wouldn't obsess over the 30cm from the wall thing. An alternative approach is to move the speaker closer to the wall and treat that wall behind the speaker with an absorber to stop SBIR causing you as much cancellation issue. The closer to the speaker is to the wall, the higher the frequency, and so the thinner the absorber you actually need to treat it. 2 to 4 inches can work fine. You will get more prominent bass reinforcement though, so you may need EQ to reduce it...?