oleg87
Addicted to Fun and Learning
If the recording was mastered properly, there should be no distortion due to quantization. Just uncorrelated noise.
I've read all the posting here, and I think that there is something important missing: resolution of the SOFTER SOUNDS.
A CD has 16 bits of resolution that 1 part in 65,536, that like .0015% distortion, incredibly low, but that's at 96 dB. Hardly anything is recorded at 96 dB on a CD or even 90 dB. Most of the sounds on a CD are recorded at a much lower than this, about 40 dB down form 96 dB. Those are not recorded with 16-bit resolution, they are recorded with only 8 bits or resolution. That's one-part in 256, or 0.25% distortion, about the same as a vinyl record.
Everything gets worse as the signal level drops. at 50 dB down, the resolution is 4 bits, that's 1 part in 16, or about 6% distortion. Bear in mind that these distortions in digital are not benign, even-order harmonic distortions, they consist of mixed harmonics and mixed products. And good vinyl reproduction still has another 10 dB of dynamic range beyond this. That's not to say that vinyl is superior, Vinyl has a lot of other problems, mechanical resonances being the most troublesome, but the harmonic distortion level does not drop with decreasing volume like it does with PCM digital.
There is a compelling reason for higher bit depth in PCM digital recordings, and that is to increase the resolution of the softer sounds. It is in this realm that capable listeners can identify the difference between 16-bit 44.1 kHz and the higher bit depth recordings. These differences are subtle, because of the low level, but they show up on material with a lot of softer sounds, in particular, orchestral (classic), and music recorded in a live setting, where reverberations and decays, and instantaneous dynamic shifts can be heard.
Yes, that is very true, but you are still left with low resolution of the softer sounds. How else can you explain certain individual being able to consistently identify 16-bit vs 24 bit versions of the same recording in double-blind testing? Amir has stated that he can do this on certain material. That is how one hears the difference, it's in the softer sounds they are subtle but there. It is very much dependent on the type of recorded music.
Ever heard of dither? That gives you around 120dB effective dynamic range.I've read all the posting here, and I think that there is something important missing: resolution of the SOFTER SOUNDS.
A CD has 16 bits of resolution that 1 part in 65,536, that like .0015% distortion, incredibly low, but that's at 96 dB. Hardly anything is recorded at 96 dB on a CD or even 90 dB. Most of the sounds on a CD are recorded at a much lower than this, about 40 dB down form 96 dB. Those are not recorded with 16-bit resolution, they are recorded with only 8 bits or resolution. That's one-part in 256, or 0.25% distortion, about the same as a vinyl record.
Everything gets worse as the signal level drops. at 50 dB down, the resolution is 4 bits, that's 1 part in 16, or about 6% distortion. Bear in mind that these distortions in digital are not benign, even-order harmonic distortions, they consist of mixed harmonics and mixed products. And good vinyl reproduction still has another 10 dB of dynamic range beyond this. That's not to say that vinyl is superior, Vinyl has a lot of other problems, mechanical resonances being the most troublesome, but the harmonic distortion level does not drop with decreasing volume like it does with PCM digital.
There is a compelling reason for higher bit depth in PCM digital recordings, and that is to increase the resolution of the softer sounds. It is in this realm that capable listeners can identify the difference between 16-bit 44.1 kHz and the higher bit depth recordings. These differences are subtle, because of the low level, but they show up on material with a lot of softer sounds, in particular, orchestral (classic), and music recorded in a live setting, where reverberations and decays, and instantaneous dynamic shifts can be heard.
Amir has stated he did this by cranking the volume up during the silence between tracks, and listening for the noise.Yes, that is very true, but you are still left with low resolution of the softer sounds. How else can you explain certain individual being able to consistently identify 16-bit vs 24 bit versions of the same recording in double-blind testing? Amir has stated that he can do this on certain material. That is how one hears the difference, it's in the softer sounds they are subtle but there. It is very much dependent on the type of recorded music.
antcollinet explained how Amir did that. Listening to only a silent portion of the music at extremely high volume levels amped to higher than normal to hear a difference in the noise floor. Had he then played music he would have blown out his phones/speakers and ears. At a level you can listen to music it would not be heard.Amir has stated somewhere on ASR that he passed double-blind testing of this type. Let's ask Amir.
This has been studied and measured. Early scientific testing showed that most people cannot repeatable recognize the difference between 16-bit 44 Khz and 24-bit 96 kHz. But later on, other studies confirmed that a small number of people can consistently here these differences. I looked quickly, but at the moment I cannot locate these studies. I will find those studies.
I think it can be considered distortion (it is distortion of the waveform). It's normally called quantization noise and it sounds like noise or "fuzz" riding on top of the signal. Like regular analog noise it's most noticeable with quiet parts but unlike analog noise it goes-away completely with digital silence.Distortion is not the correct really word for this, it's properly just a lack or resolution.
Which means if he didn't "cheat" with the volume control he might get distortion during the normal-volume parts, or blow-out his speakers, or blow-out his his ears and get temporary hearing loss and he wouldn't hear it.*Amir has stated he did this by cranking the volume up during the silence between tracks, and listening for the noise.
At the recording and mastering stages, 32 bits would be nice, but we have to live with 24bitsTake a 24-bit track. Convert to 16 bits. Convert back to 24 bits. Use DeltaWave to compare original 24-bit track with converted track.
I'm getting results such as the following:
View attachment 416729
I understand that it might be useful sticking to 24 bits in the studio (for further processing), but what's the point of using 24-bit tracks for replay?
FWIW, good ol' redbook has always sounded perfectly fine to me.
Mani.
Here are a few things I think are worth looking into -if nothing else, just to better understand your own limitations. I’ve found that recognizing my own limitations can be surprisingly enlightening.Distortion is not the correct really word for this, it's properly just a lack or resolution. 8-bit resolution is 1part in 256, which equates to about .25% NOT following the exact signal, which is about .25% distortion in my math book. It still doesn't change my point, the fact that soft sounds are recorded at much lower resolution than the stated 16-bit maximum resolution, and that's a good reason to use higher bit depth, to increase the resolution of these softer sounds.
On one hand, you seem to acknowledge the science and the thresholds involved in hearing.Thanks, Old_School_Brad. I appreciate the opportunity to learn. BTW, I know what dithering is. I read the article and tried the listening tests. I took the Kippel test also with two different music, tracks.
I definitely agree that dithering is an effective technique to reduce harmonic distortion of the softer sounds. But I honestly do not think that 16-bit audio is "good enough". Music reproduction is still distanced compared to live, unamplified music and voices, even on the best systems I've ever heard. Audio should be able to improve, we shouldn't be thinking that CD is the end of the road.
I know it's heresy to say this in this forum, but here goes: Despite its serious flaws, I still find that the best examples of vinyl playback reveal low-level details that seem to be missing in CD quality digital. Higher resolution recording is available and capable of reaching better overall quality and can most likely fill that gap. Dithering is remarkable, but it won't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
So how do you square the LP thing with the fact digital recordings of LPs are indistinguishable from the LP itself? Clearly if the medium can do that it isn't lacking resolution vs LP. And you cannot do any better with higher resolution so I don't know why you think that fills any gap.Thanks, Old_School_Brad. I appreciate the opportunity to learn. BTW, I know what dithering is. I read the article and tried the listening tests. I took the Kippel test also with two different music, tracks.
I definitely agree that dithering is an effective technique to reduce harmonic distortion of the softer sounds. But I honestly do not think that 16-bit audio is "good enough". Music reproduction is still distanced compared to live, unamplified music and voices, even on the best systems I've ever heard. Audio should be able to improve, we shouldn't be thinking that CD is the end of the road.
I know it's heresy to say this in this forum, but here goes: Despite its serious flaws, I still find that the best examples of vinyl playback reveal low-level details that seem to be missing in CD quality digital. Higher resolution recording is available and capable of reaching better overall quality and can most likely fill that gap. Dithering is remarkable, but it won't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
Back when I was involved it was normal to boost low levels of music for LP cuts to keep the quiet bits out of the noise.I still find that the best examples of vinyl playback reveal low-level details that seem to be missing in CD quality digital.
I 100% agree with every word of this.So how do you square the LP thing with the fact digital recordings of LPs are indistinguishable from the LP itself? Clearly if the medium can do that it isn't lacking resolution vs LP. And you cannot do any better with higher resolution so I don't know why you think that fills any gap.
The reason CD is not equal to live, un-amplified music and voices is due to many factors none of which have to do with deficiencies in digital audio. It has to do with microphones not hearing like ears, with stereo not being capable of recreating that live sound, and what you are hearing more than 99% of the time has been subjected to some processing that makes a fully lifelike result an impossibility.
So when was the last time you heard the dither noise from a 16bit file? I don't think I've ever heard it even running my IEM at max volume listening to reverb trails or whatever higher dynamic range stuff.I've read all the posting here, and I think that there is something important missing: resolution of the SOFTER SOUNDS.
A CD has 16 bits of resolution that 1 part in 65,536, that like .0015% distortion, incredibly low, but that's at 96 dB. Hardly anything is recorded at 96 dB on a CD or even 90 dB. Most of the sounds on a CD are recorded at a much lower than this, about 40 dB down form 96 dB. Those are not recorded with 16-bit resolution, they are recorded with only 8 bits or resolution. That's one-part in 256, or 0.25% distortion, about the same as a vinyl record.
Everything gets worse as the signal level drops. at 50 dB down, the resolution is 4 bits, that's 1 part in 16, or about 6% distortion. Bear in mind that these distortions in digital are not benign, even-order harmonic distortions, they consist of mixed harmonics and mixed products. And good vinyl reproduction still has another 10 dB of dynamic range beyond this. That's not to say that vinyl is superior, Vinyl has a lot of other problems, mechanical resonances being the most troublesome, but the harmonic distortion level does not drop with decreasing volume like it does with PCM digital.
There is a compelling reason for higher bit depth in PCM digital recordings, and that is to increase the resolution of the softer sounds. It is in this realm that capable listeners can identify the difference between 16-bit 44.1 kHz and the higher bit depth recordings. These differences are subtle, because of the low level, but they show up on material with a lot of softer sounds, in particular, orchestral (classic), and music recorded in a live setting, where reverberations and decays, and instantaneous dynamic shifts can be heard.