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Is there an audible difference in quality between well-designed $300 DAC and $1000 DAC?

Blake Klondike

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Thanks in advance for your help-- have learned so much from these forums and had fun doing it. I just bought a pair of Magnepan LRS speakers and am trying to get my system squared away to make them sound their best. My comfortable budget for a DAC is around $300 but if noticably better results can be had by spending more, would like to do it. Looking at Amir's measurement chart, it seems like buying from the "orange bucket" vs the red or green sections would be a real compromise. Can anyone give me a sense for where the sweet spot is in this tech? So much snake-oil and misinformation out there. Thanks again!
 

sergeauckland

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I would first ask myself why do I need a DAC? Most digital audio players already have one, and these are generally pretty good, so there may be no need to buy another one.

If you really need a DAC, then there are plenty at your price that are audibly transparent, so no benefit to spending more unless there are specific facilities you need.

S.
 
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Blake Klondike

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Thank you for the response! I need a DAC to get from my computer to my integrated amp. I am interested in the Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus because it has XLR outs that I could also use with genelecs in a desktop system. Is the general idea that I won't hear improved detail, soundstage, timbre, etc. going up the ladder? Is there one DAC that is the concensus recommendation from Amir's list?
 

M00ndancer

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Let the features direct you choice.
 

sergeauckland

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Thank you for the response! I need a DAC to get from my computer to my integrated amp. I am interested in the Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus because it has XLR outs that I could also use with genelecs in a desktop system. Is the general idea that I won't hear improved detail, soundstage, timbre, etc. going up the ladder? Is there one DAC that is the concensus recommendation from Amir's list?
Let the features direct you choice.

I think this says it best. Once you get to a certain level of quality, i.e. transparency, which is reached very easily these days, you won't hear improvements going up in price. Buy the cheapest that meets your needs.

For general listening on my desktop system I use the headphone output from my laptop with no external DAC, with other computers that have noisy analogue outputs, I use a Behringer UCA202 which is quite adequate. This gives you some idea of the minimum cost level that can do a decent enough job.

S.
 

GGroch

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I concur with the advice you have been given. The Dacmagic looks very nice and probably sounds excellent. A very popular DAC that has tested very well here and seems to meet your specifications (balanced out, volume control) is the SMSL SU-8 at $250. It has a remote to adjust the volume, not a nice knob like the Dacmagic, but the measurements of the revised Version 2 were very good. I bet it specs a bit better than the Dacmagic, but does not sound any better.
 
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Blake Klondike

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Thank you all for the very helpful responses. As someone without a tech background, I really appreciate feedback from people who understand the realities of the equipment. I wish there were more of this kind of clarity and support in the rest of the field!
 
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LTig

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Thank you for the response! I need a DAC to get from my computer to my integrated amp. I am interested in the Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus because it has XLR outs that I could also use with genelecs in a desktop system. Is the general idea that I won't hear improved detail, soundstage, timbre, etc. going up the ladder? Is there one DAC that is the concensus recommendation from Amir's list?
Don't know the DacMagic, but if the Behringer UMC404HD has the same sound quality as the UMC204HD it would be a steal. Just don't expect a good headphone output.
 
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Blake Klondike

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I actually have a UMC404HD that I bought for recording-- interesting idea! Any idea how it measures?
 

Blumlein 88

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I actually have a UMC404HD that I bought for recording-- interesting idea! Any idea how it measures?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...04hd-dac-and-headphone-amplifier-review.2013/

Amir has measured the 204HD. The 404HD likely measures just about like it. Plenty good, but I bet neither matches your Apollo Twin. One issue with the 204HD and 404HD is a rather low output voltage. With some gear it is enough, with others it is marginal or insufficient.
 
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RayDunzl

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Looking at Amir's (SINAD) measurement chart, it seems like buying from the "orange bucket" vs the red or green sections would be a real compromise.

I might think that in an audio chain, the whole is limited to the weakest link.

Whatever it does is passed on, be it Speakers, Amplification, DAC, Source, or What's Being Played.

I get to be wrong, but there it is.

---

SINAD:

Signal-to-noise and distortion ratio (SINAD) is a measure of the quality of a signal from a communications device, often defined as


3ec78d5132c2f5e3d59617abdba26a9a5df1fab9


where
b4dc73bf40314945ff376bd363916a738548d40a
is the average power of the signal, noise and distortion components.


My room with the JBLs playing 100Hz, full scale at the source and DAC, 92.4dB at the listening position::

1557374716368.png


1557374779955.png
1557374930504.png


SINAD = less than 34 in this case.

What's Weakest?

Choices:
REW Tone Generator on PC
PC USB to Topping D10
D10 Optical to Switch
Switch Optical to miniDSP OpenDRC-DI
Acourate Software digital filters
OpenDRC-DI Optical to Benchmark DAC
Benchmark XLR to Krell KCT Pre
Krell KCT Pre XLR to JBL LSR 308

I forgot cables...
 
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Blumlein 88

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I might think that in an audio chain, the whole is limited to the weakest link.

Whatever it does is passed on, be it Speakers, Amplification, DAC, Source, or What's Being Played.

I get to be wrong, but there it is.

---

SINAD:

Signal-to-noise and distortion ratio (SINAD) is a measure of the quality of a signal from a communications device, often defined as

{\displaystyle \mathrm {SINAD} ={\frac {P_{\text{signal}}+P_{\text{noise}}+P_{\text{distortion}}}{P_{\text{noise}}+P_{\text{distortion}}}},}

3ec78d5132c2f5e3d59617abdba26a9a5df1fab9


where {\displaystyle P}
b4dc73bf40314945ff376bd363916a738548d40a
is the average power of the signal, noise and distortion components.


My room with the JBLs playing 100Hz, full scale at the source and DAC, 92.4dB at the listening position::

View attachment 25920

View attachment 25921 View attachment 25922

SINAD = less than 34
I think your presentation is insufficient though correct in what it says. I think it is a little more complex than that. One of the reasons I rather dislike ranking by SINAD even though I don't have necessarily a better alternative. Just it is one number, one measure, which still needs interpretation and even after properly interpreted doesn't tell the whole story.

Your results do raise a question however that deserve an answer. If you inserted a DAC or AVR that had a poor SINAD of 50 db due to high 5th harmonic distortion it might still be audibly different vs your graph above on a system of only 34 db SINAD. This means you can't get away with saying "my speaker and whole system in room is only 34 db SINAD, so any up stream gear better than this is good enough". That won't be true.
 

RayDunzl

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If you inserted a DAC or AVR that had a poor SINAD of 50 db due to high 5th harmonic distortion it might still be audibly different vs your graph above on a system of only 34 db SINAD.

I can simulate it.

I can hear it...

1557375642414.png
 

RayDunzl

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I rather dislike ranking by SINAD even though I don't have necessarily a better alternative.

I'm not too fond of it - a "unitless" number, in terms of what it really represents in a given case.

Above, second chart - SINAD would be -55 just looking at the 18Hz level - the maybe not 100% inaudible but I never notice it - the air handler or outside compressor on the A/C is running.
 
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Blumlein 88

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I'm not too fond of it - a "unitless" number, in terms of what it really represents in a given case.

Above, second chart - SINAD would be -55 just looking at the 18Hz level - the maybe not 100% inaudible but I never notice it air handler or outside compressor on the A/C is running.

See looking at your 100 hz chart, and using our most sensitive frequency region, 3 khz, looks like you'd want a SINAD of no less than mid 80 db range to feel it'll not make itself known. All of which is just pointing up it isn't so simple.
 

nscrivener

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This is what I think about OP's question. You can get some cheaper dacs that have measured well on this site. But you take a number of risks in buying one of these. There is a higher chance of unit by unit variation. There is a higher chance of failure. There is a higher chance that it will be lacking in one or other important design features - take the Topping D50, for example, that doesn't sufficiently isolate noise from the power supply. So you need to buy a good quality power supply to get the best from the unit.

That's why I recently purchased an RME Adi-2 dac. Everything about this unit is excellent. It has a superb range of features and it sounds superb. The combined analog/digital volume attenuation is an excellent and well implemented idea which allows maximum SNR over a wide range of output levels, making it ideal as a preamp. It has a well implemented loudness function which improves listening at low volumes. Headphone output stages are excellent. XLR and RCA outputs. It can play anything you throw at it. And yes, I can tell the difference in the sound quality on an A/B comparison with my previous dac, an iFi Micro iDSD silver. The black edition got a SINAD of 93, so I expect the SINAD on mine is a little lower but should still provide respectable numbers. Some on here would say the difference should be inaudible.

So to me, this is where the sweet-spot lies in DAC technology. Spend about USD$1,000, set it up and no need to think about it any more. No need for linear power supplies, USB conditioners, or other "fixes".
 

andreasmaaan

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$10-$20 is about the price point at which best-in-class DACs begin to exceed any scientifically demonstrated threshold of noise/distortion audibility. It will likely be necessary to spend a bit more if you also want high output voltage, a high-output/low-impedance headphone amp, multiple digital or analogue ins/outs, volume control, DSP, or various other possibly worthwhile features.
 

nscrivener

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$10-$20 is about the price point at which best-in-class DACs begin to exceed any scientifically demonstrated threshold of noise/distortion audibility. It will likely be necessary to spend a bit more if you also want high output voltage, a high-output/low-impedance headphone amp, multiple digital or analogue ins/outs, volume control, DSP, or various other possibly worthwhile features.

Please tell me where I can find a best-in-class USB DAC that sounds as good as my RME Adi-2 for $20. I'd like to buy one and do a level matched blind test.
 

andreasmaaan

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Please tell me where I can find a best-in-class USB DAC that sounds as good as my RME Adi-2 for $20. I'd like to buy one and do a level matched blind test.

I have both the Adi-2 DAC and an Apple USB-C Dongle ($10ish IIRC). Haven’t double-blind tested myself with them, but can report that I am unable to discern any difference so long as the higher output of the RME is not needed.

Would be very interested to hear results of a double-blind test if you’re willing to put the time and effort into setting up a properly-controlled one for yourself (and would be willing to do the same on myself too - could be fun :)).
 

Daverz

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I have an Auralic Vega (originally $3500) and a Topping D10 ($90). These are both ES9018 based. I tried the Topping in my main system in place of the Vega and was hard pressed to form a preference. And that's using USB bus power from a Raspberry Pi 3B (I can hear the heads exploding from here.) The Topping sounds wonderful with a Schiit Magni3 headphone amp and Sennheiser HD650 headphones.

(To clarify: the main system is a BAT 3iX pre, Bryston 3B-SST amp and Vandersteen Quatro speakers. The headphones are probably more revealing.)
 
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