Is there a simple multichannel solution for 5.1/5.2 audio with DSP that is NOT an AVR?

[FrantzM]

Hi.

Hope I am not a buzzkiller, thread-crasher or thread-crapper.

There was a time (before 2015?)when an HTPC was a thing, a solution and a potentially powerful anchor for your Audio or AV system. No longer.
As of today 01/07/2023:
There is no "simple " solution for MCH that is not an AVR.
There is no reliable solution for MCH that is not an AVR.
There is no Living-Room ready solution for what you are trying to accomplish, aside from an AVR.
There is no elegant solution for that at this moment.

A decent AVR with Pre-out can be purchased new, in the box for much less than $1500.oo. It will likely not be the latest generation but... even 2018-AVR would be more convenient , decode most of everything and be easier to implement than anything you could concoct that is not an AVR.

Sorry but this is the truth. You may notice , most of the suggestions have not been tested. Could work for some people but not you, because, for example their motherboard is slightly different or sports a different firmware, not compatible with the one you have... You could end up spending much time trying to find why it was working the day or month before a Windows or Mac update destroys it all.

Hope I wasn't harsh. Go for an AVR. These are better than most people realize. I suggest a Denon X-3700 or 3600. Some are still available new at around $1000.oo.

Peace.

P.S. Based on @Berwhale post .. There seem to exist at least one device that could help... For the price, I would go toward an AVR... YMMV

 

[Berwhale]

As of today 01/07/2023:
There is no "simple " solution for MCH that is not an AVR.
There is no reliable solution for MCH that is not an AVR.
There is no Living-Room ready solution for what you are trying to accomplish, aside from an AVR.
There is no elegant solution for that at this moment.

There is this...

Smart Connect 5.1

www.canton.de

Feedback from ASR users: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/canton-smart-connect-5-1-discussion.25589/

 

[chelgrian]

I have been trying to sort this out. I have an Apple TV and would like to listen to stereo music and multichannel TV programming (and multichannel music when available) in a living room type space. I was trying to avoid spending $1500 on an AVR -- I would like to use 5 active speakers like Genelec or Neumann (or similar) and 2 subs. (If it had to be 1 sub it would be ok.).

It seems that what I want is very old technology -- 5.1 audio has been around for a long time now. From what I can tell, the issue is getting multichannel PCM to the DAC and (or speakers if they have the DAC built in). I think the Apple TV will allow this, but only via HDMI. That seems to be the primary hurdle to address.

Ignoring the HDMI issue, there are a number of DSP solutions out there, many from MiniDSP and Dirac, which would be fine. Genelec and Neumann have their own DSP solutions too.

It seems that a computer like a Mac Mini might work -- USB output into a DAC. But from what I gather, there is no elegant, remote-control based UI like there is on the Apple TV for navigating the various options (Netflix, Hulu, Apple Music, etc). But perhaps I am wrong about this.

Has anyone come up with an elegant solution that isn't an AVR? I can certainly get a Denon (or whatever the ASR consensus is) and use preamp outputs. Perhaps that is the optimal solution and I am trying to hard to look for a different solution.

Thanks for all suggestions.

You need the ability to delay the audio signal to account for the input delay of the TV. Or you need a TV which does eARC and is intelligent enough to sort the correct delay out itself and a device to de-embed from eARC and get to your speakers.

There are some multichannel HDMI de-embedders notably from Arvus but they are low run professional products and as such will be more expensive than a consumer AVR with pre-outs.

 

[Chrise36]

There are Essence devices but witout dsp:
https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/essence-hdacc-ii-4k-evolve-ii-4k-now-shipping/

There are slim form AVRs though...

 

[Berwhale]

Or something like this...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005111467895.html

 

[dshreter]

This spec might give me pause on the Emotiva.
THD < 0.05% from 20 Hz to 20 kHz

That is only -66 db. This getting into marginal range. I have no idea why it would be this poor in a line level 2 volt output device. They claim -85 db at 1 khz. I've found their products in processors to be marginal.

I haven’t been able to find any significantly technical reviews of their room correction, but even feedback from owners seems quite poor rather than being a fan. Oh well! The search continues.

 

[juliangst]

Iotavx had a 7.1 XLR surround processor for 800€ but it’s not available anymore.
They now sell a 17 channel surround processor for around 1700€ which might be a good choice.

 

[Neddy]

The limiting factor is Atmos/TrueHD decoding, generally only available on AVRs or bluray players.
I chose to use an old Oppo 103 for BR disc and Apple TV HDMI inputs, and use it's 8 analog outputs driving an ADC->USB device (MOTU 8Pre).
This gets me decoding (not atmos,tho, on these older BR players), and USB outputs.
Both available used for a few hundred or less, I'd guess.
Sure, not SOTA, but not all that necessary (given the alternative costs) for Movie Nights.
Plus, the 8Pre has mini-LEDs for monitoring input levels, and the Oppo can throw another whole level of EQ into the mix (so to speak) for movies.
And, finally, SOTA for music (multi-channel) is still there as the Moto feeds a PC/OktoDAC8 set up running JRiver.
Aside from Win10 occasinally 'forgetting stuff', and needing to be 'reminded' about the MOTU USB input, it works surprisingly well.
Total cost (excluding amps, speakers) was under $2k.

 

[HooStat]

I don't think Atmos/TrueHD decoding is necessary from an Apple TV. It can send multichannel PCM for 5.1 (though let me know if I am wrong). So it really boils down to whether one can get the digital PCM from HDMI which looks like it is possible via a few of the options already mentioned. It could get a little ugly depending on whether one needs USB, coaxial or AES/EBU for inputs and outputs, and how one wants to do the room correction.

But just to lay out one clean (albeit expensive solution), Apple TV to AudioPraise via HDMI. Then AudioPraise to Genelec Speakers via AES/EBU. Room correction via GLM from Genelec. Unless I am missing something that seems really elegant.

UPDATE FROM Vanity PRO website:

Q: Can I directly connect an Apple 4K TV via HDMI to the VanityPRO and connect the Genelec AES cables to the AES/EBU output of VanityPRO? Will VanityPRO decode all LPCM signals like Dolby Digital, DD+, Atmos, DTS, DTS True HD, DTS Master? Apple TV supports these formats.

A: Yes, the AppleTV can be connected directly to the VanityPRO via HDMI. The Genelec speakers can then be connected digitally to the VanityPRO‘s AES/EBU outputs. The VanityPRO does not feature any compressed multichannel audio decoders such as Dolby Digital, DTS, Atmos, etc. The VanityPRO needs to receive decoded LPCM or DSD audio. The Dolby decoders are usually available on the HDMI source side, blu-ray players, streamers - including AppleTV. For AppleTV go to: Settings -> Video and Audio and select Audio Format. Under the Atmospheric Audio tab, enable Dolby Atmos.

 

[tifune]

I don't think Atmos/TrueHD decoding is necessary from an Apple TV.

Agreed, it's definitely not necessary but Apple is one of the few providers that offer TrueHD streaming IIRC. To me that means very little, others...?

 

[chelgrian]

I don't think Atmos/TrueHD decoding is necessary from an Apple TV. It can send multichannel PCM for 5.1 (though let me know if I am wrong). So it really boils down to whether one can get the digital PCM from HDMI which looks like it is possible via a few of the options already mentioned. It could get a little ugly depending on whether one needs USB, coaxial or AES/EBU for inputs and outputs, and how one wants to do the room correction.

But just to lay out one clean (albeit expensive solution), Apple TV to AudioPraise via HDMI. Then AudioPraise to Genelec Speakers via AES/EBU. Room correction via GLM from Genelec. Unless I am missing something that seems really elegant.

For 7.1 no support is needed, set the Apple TV to auto and it will provide LPCM to the end point.

For Atmos the end point must support Atmos. What this actually means is that it supports Dolby MAT which is how Atmos is moved over HDMI.

 

[mdsimon2]

So the VanityPro will take the PCM output of an Apple TV and allow me to run a digital signal straight into speakers with a digital input (e.g., Genelec)? For basically the same price as a solid DVR? Wow. That is a very interesting solution. Or a used Meridian 621 (need to look into that a bit more but they are < $300 on ebay).

Yes. If your speakers have digital inputs and enough DSP than that is all you need.

It gets more complicated if you want DSP or volume control upstream of your speakers but it could be done with a digital input / output DSP like the miniDSP DDRC-88D or in software with a digital input / output interface like the miniDSP U-DIO8 or an RME Digiface USB.

Michael

 

[HooStat]

Yes. If your speakers have digital inputs and enough DSP than that is all you need.

It gets more complicated if you want DSP or volume control upstream of your speakers but it could be done with a digital input / output DSP like the miniDSP DDRC-88D or in software with a digital input / output interface like the miniDSP U-DIO8 or an RME Digiface USB.

Michael

Good point about digital volume control. It is supported via GLM but I don't think you can get it to respond to the Apple TV remote. I think Genelec is RF instead of IR.

 

[HooStat]

It also looks like the Vanity Pro is working on a USB output implementation which would work with other products and possibly allow a better volume integration with the Apple TV.

 

[HooStat]

Good point about digital volume control. It is supported via GLM but I don't think you can get it to respond to the Apple TV remote. I think Genelec is RF instead of IR.

Actually, the VanityPro has ARC and a volume control, so it should work properly with the Apple TV remote. This seems like a great solution, albeit expensive. Genelec subs are not cheap, but for a simple solution it is hard to beat. Probably Neumann also would work.

 

[Sal1950]

I chose to use an old Oppo 103 for BR disc and Apple TV HDMI inputs, and use it's 8 analog outputs driving an ADC->USB device (MOTU 8Pre).
This gets me decoding (not atmos,tho, on these older BR players), and USB outputs.
Both available used for a few hundred or less, I'd guess.

Oppo's ???
Have you tried to buy one lately?

 

[Neddy]

Nope, but 103s seem to run 200-500 on ebay at the moment in the US, and see at least 6 available now.
Really, just trying to point out there are other ways to skin this darned PC/Mac/no-AVR critter.
Spending multiple thousands for a poor performing, and 'useless-feature rich' AVR was just not an option for me, so I decided to try this approach.
Sure, it probably doesn't perform all that much better, but OTOH, it only cost me a couple hundred for the Motu ADC (also ebaby).
Works far better than I'd expected.
Would be nice if there was a newer Oppo equivalent with Atmos decoding and multiple analog outs (and HDMI in!), but I suspect the legal beagles are working hard to prevent any way for even medium resolution audio rips to make it out. REally pretty depressing when Bluray rips are so easy (apparently) to do.
That Emotiva unit looks interesting - kind of an update on the UMC-200 I still have (in storage), and likely no better performing.
But probably a decent option, but would need an external BR player for those discs, and could still be fed to an ADC to put it all through a PC.

 

[chelgrian]

Actually, the VanityPro has ARC and a volume control, so it should work properly with the Apple TV remote. This seems like a great solution, albeit expensive. Genelec subs are not cheap, but for a simple solution it is hard to beat. Probably Neumann also would work.

Don't forget to do bass management with a Genelec GLM system and AES you also need a 9301A or 9301B interface unit. These are not cheap for what is a glorified summing box.

 

[HooStat]

Don't forget to do bass management with a Genelec GLM system and AES you also need a 9301A or 9301B interface unit. These are not cheap for what is a glorified summing box.

That is a good point. Genelec is not inexpensive. But it definitely seems to work.

Interestingly, one can route multichannel analog signals through the sub without the 9301 (as far as I can tell). In that case, one could run the Apple TV HDMI output through one of the other options with analog outputs and run those through the sub. That would save a good bit of money.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Had no idea this existed. Any idea of the quality of their room correction?

Be careful with Emotiva. QC problems. Wouldn't trust their in house room correction.