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Is there a simple multichannel solution for 5.1/5.2 audio with DSP that is NOT an AVR?

Open Mind Audio

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I have been trying to sort this out. I have an Apple TV and would like to listen to stereo music and multichannel TV programming (and multichannel music when available) in a living room type space. I was trying to avoid spending $1500 on an AVR -- I would like to use 5 active speakers like Genelec or Neumann (or similar) and 2 subs. (If it had to be 1 sub it would be ok.).

It seems that what I want is very old technology -- 5.1 audio has been around for a long time now. From what I can tell, the issue is getting multichannel PCM to the DAC and (or speakers if they have the DAC built in). I think the Apple TV will allow this, but only via HDMI. That seems to be the primary hurdle to address.

Ignoring the HDMI issue, there are a number of DSP solutions out there, many from MiniDSP and Dirac, which would be fine. Genelec and Neumann have their own DSP solutions too.

It seems that a computer like a Mac Mini might work -- USB output into a DAC. But from what I gather, there is no elegant, remote-control based UI like there is on the Apple TV for navigating the various options (Netflix, Hulu, Apple Music, etc). But perhaps I am wrong about this.

Has anyone come up with an elegant solution that isn't an AVR? I can certainly get a Denon (or whatever the ASR consensus is) and use preamp outputs. Perhaps that is the optimal solution and I am trying to hard to look for a different solution.

Thanks for all suggestions.

Here's a solution that works well for me.
  1. Universal Player (Oppo 205) with Analog Outs as PrePro: Connect the analog outs from an Oppo UDP-205, or a similar universal player, to your active speakers, using the 205 as a prepro. I use mine this way except with passive speakers and separate amps. This works well and the chain is very clean.
    1. Movies: The Oppo processes Atmos and has up to 7.1 outputs. For movies and YouTube, my Roku player feeds the Oppo with Atmos and surround sound via HDMI.
    2. Music: For music, including multichannel, I use Roon and JRiver to control the Oppo, which reads audio files via Ethernet from my digital library or streaming sources. And I can fart around with any streaming source that shows the Oppo as an option: Apple TV, Amazon Music, etc.
  2. For room correction:
    1. Get a UMIK microphone and REW to take your own measurements -- a great thing to do of its own accord.
    2. Start with physical tuning of the room before you do digital -- also a great thing to do of its own accord.
    3. For audio, use Roon, JRiver, or another media player that has DSP room correction, manually setting correction profiles based on the REW measurements (there are lots of great tutorials on this, and it will bring you a lot of awareness of your room and equipment).
    4. Finally, for movies ... you're partially stuck here. It's the one limitation to this approach, in that you won't have a good digital room correction option. However, if you've worked on your physical room correction, you should be in great shape. And in my opinion, physical room correction beats digital room correction anyway.
That, or get an AVR.

PS - There are other limitations to this approach I did not mention, such as the limitation to 7 channels and challenges playing at low volumes when using discs. But if the goal is to avoid an AVR, this is a well-measuring way to do it.

PPS - I incorrectly stated the Oppo can process Atmos and corrected that. It can't, alas. Good explanation here:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...blu-ray-player-owners-thread.2821841/page-127
 
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voodooless

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  1. Movies: The Oppo processes Atmos and has up to 7.1 outputs.
Does it? Not according to the product page:
With internal decoding of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, and bitstream output for object-based immersive audio formats such as Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, the UDP-205 delivers great sound for both movie soundtracks and music.
And:


Would love to be wrong on this one btw, sounds like a great alternative due to the HDMI input. eARC support would be even better!
 

Open Mind Audio

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Does it? Not according to the product page:

And:


Would love to be wrong on this one btw, sounds like a great alternative due to the HDMI input. eARC support would be even better!
Aargh - I was wrong about that. You are correct - the Oppo does not decode Atmos. Before using mine as a PrePro, I was using it in an Atmos setup through a Marantz PrePro. I didn't realize until your post that it does not decode Atmos on its own, it just passed it along. Here's some background info for those interested:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-oppo-udp-205-uhd-blu-ray-player-owners-thread.2821841/page-127
 
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HooStat

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One other option is to take the Apple TV into the AudioPraise and get the digital signal out for 5.1 or 7.1. Then this can be passed to the MiniDSP DDRC-88D with Dirac, which I believe can do all of the bass and signal routing and room correction. Then this would be passed to a 7 channel DAC like the Topping DM7 or the OktoDac and run to all of the desired speakers. It is a ~$3100 solution plus speakers, but it would work with any active speakers (or amp and passive speakers). The DDRC-88D says it works with the Apple remote but I don't know for sure how well it integrates with the most current version. But if that works, then it would do the job and be very flexible. Particularly if it supports the upcoming version of Dirac Live Bass Control for multiple subwoofers.

EDIT -- you can also skip the DAC if you have active speakers with DACs in them like some Genelec and Neumann speakers, plus others I am sure.
 

mkt

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And also skip the MiniDSP if GLM (Genelec) or MA 1 (Neumann) are good enough for your needs
 
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HooStat

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And also skip the MiniDSP if GLM (Genelec) or MA 1 (Neumann) are good enough for your needs
You are correct. However, the problem is that Genelec can't handle multichannel digital signals through their sub for routing the bass to the sub (analog is ok). To do that requires the 9301 which is $1100. (This was mentioned previously in this thread.) The solution I just mentioned is an alternative version that doesn't require Genelec speakers. Or, alternatively, it allows someone to use Genelec speakers and non-Genelec subs. In that case, you could use GLM for correcting the main speaker and Dirac to do the sub integration and crossovers, but I have no experience with that. Or just use Dirac.
 
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gondorff

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You are correct. However, the problem is that Genelec can't handle multichannel digital signals through their sub for routing the bass to the sub (analog is ok). To do that requires the 9301 which is $1100. (This was mentioned previously in this thread.) The solution I just mentioned is an alternative version that doesn't require Genelec speakers. Or, alternatively, it allows someone to use Genelec speakers and non-Genelec subs. In that case, you could use GLM for correcting the main speaker and Dirac to do the sub integration and crossovers, but I have no experience with that. Or just use Dirac.
It looks like Genelec subs are the main weakness because they are primarily analog devices from a connections perspective, and they require a $1000 box to replace the built-in 7-channel analog input functionality with similar digital input functionality. It would be nice if Genelec subs would have the same functionality they use in their monitors and allow an analog OR digital input. Seems like a big, expensive oversight. It is a shame because their subs are expensive already.
That‘s not an oversight by Genelec. It is on purpose.

Genelec Subs had digital inputs for most of the time being. Only until end of 2016, they reverted back to analog input. One can only guess why. They probably looked at sales figures and support tickets and proliferation of AES3 and then had one last look at that piece of shit that HDCP is and its development over the last ten years and went on to scrap it for the updated series.
Back then, it was exactly the other way around: 8 digital in/outputs on subwoofers and you had to buy the AD9200 8 channel Genelec A/D box to get analog inputs.
That was this one: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models/ad9200a-ad-converter

As already mentioned in the APVanityPro thread: you could get a 7200 series sub: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models/7260a
Starting with the 7260, you have 8 AES3 in/outputs. It is less expensive than the new ones (reason: probably used, but at least last-gen) and you won‘t need the 9301. Disadvantages: no signal sensing auto-power-off and the older ones are not crossing over as high as the new ones. However, I never understood that last one: of what use is a sub which crosses above 100 Hz?

One more thing: you can mix the newer 83xx speaker series with the 72xx series of subs without hassle. They turn up in GLM as one would expect.
 
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That‘s not an oversight by Genelec. It is on purpose.

Genelec Subs had digital inputs for most of the time being. Only until end of 2016, they reverted back to analog input. One can only guess why. They probably looked at sales figures and support tickets and proliferation of AES3 and then had one last look at that piece of shit that HDCP is and it’s development over the last ten years and went on to scrap it for the updated series.
Back then, it was exactly the other way around: 8 digital in/outputs on subwoofers and you had to buy the AD9200 8 channel Genelec A/D box to get analog inputs.
That was this one: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models/ad9200a-ad-converter

As already mentioned in the APVanityPro thread: you could get a 7200 series sub: https://www.genelec.com/previous-models/7260a
Starting with the 7260, you have 8 AES3 in/outputs. It is less expensive than the new ones (reason: probably used, but at least last-gen) and you won‘t need the 9301. Disadvantages: no signal sensing auto-power-off and the older ones are not crossing over as high as the new ones. However, I never understood that last one: of what use is a sub which crosses above 100 Hz?

One more thing: you can mix the newer 83xx speaker series with the 72xx series of subs without hassle. They turn up in GLM as one would expect.
You make a good point -- thank you. "Oversight" was not a great word choice -- it was clearly purposeful. I was really talking about making it a choice to have all-digital or all-analog when they have devices already that can do both using the same AES/EBU input. But I am sure that would have made their already expensive subs even more expensive. I guess the reality is that the world isn't really ready for an all-digital signal chain yet.
 
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don't know if this is still relevant. I'm researching something similar to pair powered speakers with various HDMI sources and to throw a good DAC into the mix.

Marantz Cinema 70s is comparably small, offers all the inputs AND pre-outs.

Plus ease of use for the setup plus room correction.
 
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dualazmak

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Although quite belated, let me share my system set up for "multichannel DSP audio plus TV/video watching" .

I recently shared the latest system setup here #774 on my project thread.

As I shared/discussed in detail in my post here on the remote thread, I can do all the TV/video watching on my audio(-visual) dedicated PC which has software TV tuner capable of regular digital TV channels, all the BS (Satellite) 2K TV channels and all the 4K TV channels, through optical internet connection receiving all the TV channels through ultra-high-speed optical internet access (we call Optical TV).

I connect, therefore, Panasonic 55-inch 4K OLED TV as "second PC monitor of 4K resolution" to the audio(-visual) dedicated PC with one slim HDMI cable for "TV/video viewing" while all the audio signal can be processed by my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup; actually my audio rig is 5-way (L&R 10-channel) having L&R sub-woofers, woofers, midrange squawkers, tweeters and puer-tweeters.
WS00005868.JPG


I assume, if you have optical internet access to any of the TV channels and AV programs (like YouTube, etc.) with your PC, then I would like to suggest using your 4K (or even 8K?) TV as second PC monitor and process all the audio signals by DSP software in your PC hopefully all in ASIO routing.
 
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