- Thread Starter
- #21
Wait...wait wait....do I need speakers too? :OOO
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Is the sound of a relatively expensive amplifier so much different than a cheaper one?
- Thread starter sitherion
- Start date
hmm. After reading the owners manual for the Rotel and CXA I am concerned the subwoofer out is just a low pass output and there is not actually an active crossover configurable in the settings for the integrated amp. Which means, IMHO, they are all missing a critical feature to separate the low frequencies out from the mains and send them only to a subwoofer. If so I personally would skip them and find a stereo integrated amp that handles 2.1 correctly.
So my question is: What speakers do you plan to run? Do you plan to add a subwoofer? If you do then I would find an integrated that properly handles subwoofer crossover configuration.
assuming you want to go with 2 channel only and no sub from your oringial post: I think you'd want to go with the Oberon -9s and the extra power from the Rotel if you are going to stick with these three. I can absolutely see you clipping the other amplifiers when the '9's dig deep to get the bass frequencies at 4ohms. I am working back from using the -9's because the extra bass response will give you more enjoyment from your system than anything else we've talked about.
So my question is: What speakers do you plan to run? Do you plan to add a subwoofer? If you do then I would find an integrated that properly handles subwoofer crossover configuration.
assuming you want to go with 2 channel only and no sub from your oringial post: I think you'd want to go with the Oberon -9s and the extra power from the Rotel if you are going to stick with these three. I can absolutely see you clipping the other amplifiers when the '9's dig deep to get the bass frequencies at 4ohms. I am working back from using the -9's because the extra bass response will give you more enjoyment from your system than anything else we've talked about.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #23
For the CXA I would pair it with Dali Oberon 7, whereas the Rotel/JBL I would pair them with Dali Oberon 9.
I didn't consider adding a subwoofer into the configuration. Excuse my ignorance but I thought that subwoofers were a home-cinema A/V component and not really necessary (not even needed at all) for a 2-ch Hi-Fi system. Now, with all these comments I see the case is different.
I think that both Dalis have some sub- capabilities though...not sure.
What I've been learning from all the speaker reviews and the Harman research presented on this site is that bass response and getting full range audio performance is a big impact on personal enjoyment. For example if you look at the speaker reviews when the preference score is calculated, it always goes up significantly (E.G. 1+ full points) with a subwoofer. Which is code for telling us, we'll enjoy our stereo systems a lot more with good low frequency performance.
Now when working backward from that, when you read the speaker measurements they are always limited first by their low frequency performance. they distort much more first at low frequencies. To exacerbate that problem, we need A LOT more power to create those low frequencies AND we need the SPLs to be much higher for our ears to perceive them at the same loudness as mid-range and highs. E.G. 110db at 25hz is the same perceived loudness as 80db at 3Khz. So it's a double whammy for us to get the HIGH SINAD sound we are looking for with full range.
If you think about it, it makes intuitive sense. We are trying to make a mechanical device move a larger distance and a larger amount of air very linearly (no distortion) to create low frequencies. So that will take more power than moving a very small tweeter a small distance to create a high frequency.
Hope that is helpful.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
A bold statement and if only it were true.
Sure, the JBL looks cool, but it's just a design nod to an actual JBL classic design (SA-600) and not a classic in itself. I'd buy the Rotel.
- Thread Starter
- #26
This is extremely helpful for me! Thank you very much!
May I be a burden and ask what would you then recommend as a good amplifier that has the option (?) that you mentioned, of configurable active cross over?
Here is Amir's review and measurements thread. You can also ask owners on this thread about it.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nad-m33-streaming-amplifier-review.17302/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nad-m33-streaming-amplifier-review.17302/
My experience:
Playing softly, no difference.
Now, turn it up some.
No, more.
Come on, don't be shy, turn it up.
No, louder.
More money (mostly) buys more power, though "bling" can be a factor.
The dividing line would be something like less than or much more than 100W.
Click below:
That chart may look extreme.
Realize that "typical" music has a difference of 15 to 25dB between the average and peak levels.
Listen at 75dBSPL - fairly mild listening level, easily hold a conversation over it - there will be peaks around 95dB.
Realize that "typical" music has a difference of 15 to 25dB between the average and peak levels.
Listen at 75dBSPL - fairly mild listening level, easily hold a conversation over it - there will be peaks around 95dB.
- Thread Starter
- #31
@Beershaun it looks beautiful! In the UK we have it for £4,000...quite a steep increase...I also like the fact that has expansion slots, didn't even know that this was a thing.
@RayDunzl in other words, for the noob, the difference becomes evident when I start playing the music really loud? I see an exponential increase and linear increase in the plots (I am a statistician in profession) but unfortunately I do not get much else.
@RayDunzl in other words, for the noob, the difference becomes evident when I start playing the music really loud? I see an exponential increase and linear increase in the plots (I am a statistician in profession) but unfortunately I do not get much else.
Bear123
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2019
- Messages
- 796
- Likes
- 1,370
Its true that subwoofers are still not commonly used or accepted by a lot for 2 channel systems, but this does not mean it is optimal to not use them . In fact, just the opposite is true. One of the basic foundations for high fidelity is achieving a smooth, accurate, +/- 3 dB response full bandwidth(with correct downward slope) so that all frequencies are played back at the correct level. Two speakers alone in a room are not high fidelity. Response below 300 Hz will be a +/- 10-15 dB train wreck, highly coloring everything played. Main speakers are placed symmetrically on the front stage which is often or almost always not the ideal placement to achieve a high fidelity response below 100 Hz. The solution is a pair of well placed subs properly crossed to the mains at around 80 Hz with bass management, time alignment, and eq on everything up to 300 Hz or so(Schroeder). High fidelity equipment should have this capability, or it is just not high fidelity, but rather just dated and behind the times.
Here is a visual example of what "Pure 2.0 channel" looks like:
This is an objectively very well designed speaker with very good, neutral, and accurate anechoic response. In room however, this is *NOT* high fidelity. EQ can solve some of this train wreck, but here is what a good pair of properly placed subs accomplishes:
This provides high fidelity playback not only in terms of an accurate response, but significantly lower distortion than pretty much any speaker made can achieve, with freedom to boost low bass as much as desired without audible distortion.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2016
- Messages
- 20,690
- Likes
- 37,414
The take home message from the graph, linear sounding moderate increases in loudness (Sound Pressure Level SPL) require exponential increases of wattage. While many speakers in the home will do about all you need with a good 100 watts, getting on up that little bit extra easily eats up several hundred more watts.
Put other ways, doubling power results in just easily noticeable loudness increases. Doubling apparent loudness might require about 10 times the wattage. So for 10 more db SPL you just went from 100 watts to 1000 watts.
"Headroom" or instantaneous delivery of additional power to match program peaks is (until recently) something that only expensive and heavy power supplies could deliver. The Rotel amplifiers mentioned earlier have traditional Class AB topologies with large toroids.
The recent arrival of properly filtered switching power supplies in Class D, G and H amplifiers make high power output more affordable.
Given the inefficient loudspeakers under consideration, amplifiers should be chosen for both control functions and sufficient headroom to wring the most music out of recordings.
The recent arrival of properly filtered switching power supplies in Class D, G and H amplifiers make high power output more affordable.
Given the inefficient loudspeakers under consideration, amplifiers should be chosen for both control functions and sufficient headroom to wring the most music out of recordings.
Last edited:
eddantes
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- May 15, 2020
- Messages
- 714
- Likes
- 1,401
There are many candidates for an amp with sub control and room management... but they aint cheap. Things like the Anthem STR integrated or perhaps the Parasound Hint 6... I believe someone has already mentioned that you can get your desired result with a Denon AVR like the 8500H. Another way to skin this cat is with a MiniDSP SHD and a Hypex based amp. Let the SHD do the room and SUB management and leave the power to the HYPEX and SUB amps.
Last edited:
Invest in a good pair of speakers. The best and more powerful amps will be useless if your speakers are not good. For what makes a speaker sound good, please read the ASR speaker reviews and you'll get the idea.
DACs & amps, provided their distortion / noise / jitter measurements are below audibility, have no sound of their own. All you want your amp to do is provide the appropriate power for your speakers, room, and preferred loudness, without introducing audible distortion and noise. A well engineered $1000 amp can do that equally well as a well engineered $10K amp.
Good luck with your upgrade.
DACs & amps, provided their distortion / noise / jitter measurements are below audibility, have no sound of their own. All you want your amp to do is provide the appropriate power for your speakers, room, and preferred loudness, without introducing audible distortion and noise. A well engineered $1000 amp can do that equally well as a well engineered $10K amp.
Good luck with your upgrade.
RE: Amplifier power needs. I'll repost this video originally shared by others on this great forum. This really helped me understand for the range of actual instant power needs depending on the low frequency demands and dynamic range of the music you are listening to, and the efficiency of the speakers. Continuous power rating is an appropriate way to compare amplifiers but the actual in-use demand at any instant is highly variable. So continuous power is not really representative of real world usage and needs.