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Is the sound of a relatively expensive amplifier so much different than a cheaper one?

sitherion

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Hi everyone,

I am quite new to the forum and as I am trying to build my first Hi-Fi system I was wondering how much different is the sound quality/experience amongst cheaper to more expensive amps.

To be more specific. I saw that JBL announced the SA750, which I fell in love with its retro-looks. Also, to my inexperienced eye its specs look pretty solid (Dirac, 220W output, high signal/noise ratio and 0.002% distortion). I am looking forward for the first reviews to come in and confirm or debunk these specs. One more plus for me is that it offers everything, USB connectivity, WiFi, network player + MM input for my LPs. It's priced at £2,700 and I am considering of combining it with Dali Oberon 9.

Now, the alternative option is to go for let's say either the Rotel RA-1572MKII or the more expensive RA-1592MKII, again complimenting them with Dali Oberon 9 speakers. This solution is far less expensive (especially the 1572) and I don't care so much for the network player as long as I can use the USB option to connect laptop/ipad. I expect reviews for these two around July.

Finally, the last and cheapest option is to go for a Cambridge CXA81 (+ I will add the CXN V2 for its USB connectivity + Cambridge Duo for the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO turntable). This option I will go down a notch and pair it with Dali Oberon 7 speakers.

I know that these amps + speakers might be on a different league amongst them and I don't mind spending 5K for a system that I will love listening to and using it for 15-20 years but I was wondering if the sound experience of going from a 2-3K system to a 5K one is linear or as I am not a profficient audiophile I will not really see the quality difference.

Mind you, the system will be installed in a normal living room...5x5 sq.m.

Thanks!
 

Inner Space

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I am quite new to the forum and as I am trying to build my first Hi-Fi system I was wondering how much different is the sound quality/experience amongst cheaper to more expensive amps.

There will be virtually no difference at all. There are aspects worth exploring, such as adequate power, distortion spectrum, performance into real-world loads and so on, and there may be tiny resultant differences, which under super-close scrutiny might be audible.

But always remember, your speakers and your room will always be the massively dominant factors. Imagine a grain of sand, the Matterhorn, and Mount Everest all laid out in a line. Your amp is the grain of sand; your speakers are the Matterhorn; and your room is Mount Everest.

Good luck with your system!
 

eddantes

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First - your enjoyment of the system includes many factors. Some non-techincal ones are: pride_of_ownership, visual appearance, tactile performance; price-benefit, etc... On the technical side there's: perfomance and features (eg Dirac and streaming).

Features are important. To get Dirac one needs to shell out for a more expensive product. I think a MiniDSP product is probably the cheapest way into Dirac. Streaming is in almost everything these days.

As for pure SINAD of performance - both expensive and inexpensive products can have both good and poor perfomance, as this site has shown again and again. And, really, how good is your hearing? You may not be able to tell the difference between an amp with a SINAD of 80 and another with a SINAD closer to 100 anyways...

So to answer your question - does an expesive amp sound different than a cheaper one? DO they have the same measured performance and features? If so - I suggest - NO, they do not sound different.

But - if one were to incorporate all the things that come into "enjoying" and amp and all the features - then you may find that having a more expesive amp brings you more enjoyment. (Unless you're a cheap bastard like me - in which case - price-performance rules the roost)
 
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Jim Matthews

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Do you have access to the NAD M10?

The native BlueOS app is easy to navigate.
 
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sitherion

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And, really, how good is your hearing? You may not be able to tell the difference between an apm with a SINAD of 80 and another with a SINAD closer to 100 anyways...

hahaha I think that might be me
 

Helicopter

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The JBL amp looks cool, and the Cambridge amp costs less. I would get one or the ither based on that.

Thise Dalis are sensitive, so you will very likely have no difference in sound you can hear.
 

Gorgonzola

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This is the wrong forum to ask about sound differences of amplifiers. Various will-informed members will assert that control experiments have repeatedly demonstrated that even experience listeners cannot reliably distinguish one amp from another. OTOH many audiophiles insist that they can tell difference and may prefer, e.g. tube amps in general to solid state.

Perhaps the best thing is for you to listen and make up your own mind. At the very least make sure that the amps being compared are in the same system; preferably also do the tests "blind" with someone switching the amps while you are out of the room.
 

Jim Matthews

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Certainly there is middle ground - if a buyer has a general notion about the offerings, it will make selection somewhat easier.

I see two pitfalls before the OP: the amplifiers in question have different output devices, so straight comparisons may not be possible.

Any computer based device will be replaced by something better, simpler and cheaper - the Osborn effect. The best time to buy is always now.

I would suggest considering only the devices that may be tested at home, and returned to the seller if unsat. Personally, I prefer fewer boxes and would select the one that handles all my input requirements without adapters.
 

Beershaun

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Those three choices all are very nice with good SINAD specs. I think I would choose the Rotel for 2 reasons in this order.
1) Subwoofer output.
2)More power continuous into 8ohms.

The Dirac on the JBL is a good selling point but no subwoofer output is a non-starter for me in the modern hifi world. Low end bass is a big improvement in listening enjoyment and the only affordable way to get it is with a powered separate subwoofer. Otherwise you are into Revel Salon2 territory to try and get the same bass response from stereo free standing loudspeakers. And the higher power rating into 8ohms means you are less likely to clip your Amp when low frequencies require it in your music.

And those reasons WILL make your complete system sound better.
 

eddantes

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Those three choices all are very nice with good SINAD specs. I think I would choose the Rotel for 2 reasons in this order.
1) Subwoofer output.
2)More power continuous into 8ohms.

The Dirac on the JBL is a good selling point but no subwoofer output is a non-starter for me in the modern hifi world. Low end bass is a big improvement in listening enjoyment and the only affordable way to get it is with a powered separate subwoofer. Otherwise you are into Revel Salon2 territory to try and get the same bass response from stereo free standing loudspeakers. And the higher power rating into 8ohms means you are less likely to clip your Amp when low frequencies require it in your music.

And those reasons WILL make your complete system sound better.

Many subwoofers have high-level connections... Absence of a "sub-out" does not preclude the use of a sub...

But in the case of the SA750, one ought to be able to use the pre-outs for sub intergration.
1622493231387.png
 
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sitherion

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Many subwoofers have high-level connections... Absence of a "sub-out" does not preclude the use of a sub...

But in the case of the SA750, one ought to be able to use the pre-outs for sub intergration.
View attachment 132999
May I ask something silly regarding that photo that you posted? Why the pre-out is closer to the ground connection? Shouldn't the MM/MC be there instead? Sorry, bit out of topic.
 

Beershaun

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Many subwoofers have high-level connections... Absence of a "sub-out" does not preclude the use of a sub...

But in the case of the SA750, one ought to be able to use the pre-outs for sub intergration.
View attachment 132999
yeah but then you get into the whole cross-over management problem and you can't high pass the mains etc. It's just a better more flexible design if the integrated amp handles the sub/main crossover duties. Things like upstream DSP and room correction for example get a lot easier. Again it's my opinion, but I expect you will want to add a subwoofer and then when that time comes you're going to get stuck with an overly complicated sub-optimal solution.
 

eddantes

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May I ask something silly regarding that photo that you posted? Why the pre-out is closer to the ground connection? Shouldn't the MM/MC be there instead? Sorry, bit out of topic.

Well... you noticed something that may lead to your not enjoying this amp... eh?

Kind of an odd user interface choice isn't it... To my suspicious mind - what other "odd" choices were made in the design of this product?
 

Bear123

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I'd check to see which option has dual subwoofer output, bass management, and eq capability on subs and speakers.

SA-750 marketing copy:
"The SA750 features a high-resolution DAC and has built-in WiFi for streaming music via online services and for streaming over AirPlay 2 and Chromecast from compatible devices. It's also a Roon endpoint. Shipped with a calibration microphone, the SA750 features DIRAC Live to fine-tune the output of speakers and subwoofers to the listening space."

This makes it seem as though the SA750 certainly has the above capability.

I agree with some of the sentiment mentioned earlier involving the aesthetics. If you love the way this looks, it will definitely affect how much you enjoy how it sounds!
 
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sitherion

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I agree with @Beershaun; if you are looking for high quality sound for music, any device you get should include the basics required for high fidelity playback; bass management, subwoofer output, and eq on speakers and subs up to Schroeder. If not all in one device, then some way of easily incorporating these features. I can't see the point of spending several thousand dollars for a piece of equipment that does not provide what is needed for high fidelity. Better off just getting an AVR. The 2 channel only Rotel RA-1572MKII advertises .018% distortion, or -75 dB. AVR's get laughed off this site with numbers better than that. Do you "need" a 7/9 channel AVR for music only? Certainly not! But a $1200 Denon X3600/3700 has objectively higher fidelity than a much more expensive 2 channel only piece of equipment. And it comes with bass mangement, and excellent, user customizable sub and speaker eq, bass management, etc.

So mind boggling that most of the gear specifically designed for high fidelity 2 channel music production, is not capable of it, along with being much higher priced. Gear laughed at by Audiophiles(AVR's), are not only cheaper but indeed higher fidelity.

I wish I had a more productive answer for you in terms of a good 2 channel piece of equipment that offers the same level of fidelity as a multi channel AVR, even at the same cost, but I don't know of one off the top of my head.

I suppose with the Rotel, which does have dual subwoofer outs(so hopefully bass management as well), one could add a miniDSP 2x4 HD to at least get eq on the subs. No need to worry about degrading the signal as you are only starting with -75 dB "advertised" performance.

The more expensive RA-1592MKII advertises more power, and lower fidelity i.e. -70 dB. Again this type of performance gets AVR's laughed off the site and headless panthers……but for 2 channel gear, you have to pay $3k. I just don't get it. I'd be extremely frustrated if I were looking for a 2 channel only piece of equipment. I'm lucky that I was able to repurpose an old AVR for my secondary music system, since, as far as I can tell, I would have to spend a lot more money without any real benefit for something that can only drive two speakers. I'm fine leaving the others unused.

Actually, I never even considered about checking AVRs. My thought was that they wouldn't be as good as buying a system specifically made for 2-channels and music listening. :/
 

Bear123

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Actually, I never even considered about checking AVRs. My thought was that they wouldn't be as good as buying a system specifically made for 2-channels and music listening. :/
Haha I edited my post once I saw the JBL's capability….but the points I made before editing are valid…A LOT of high priced 2 channel gear is lower fidelity than decent AVR's, and almost always lacks the basic requirements for high fidelity. The JBL may be worth a look but $3k for two channels…wow I'd have to LOVE the look and really really really really NOT want extra channels that I don't need, in order to justify that price over a $1200 AVR that probably measures better or just as good.

JBL is adverstising .002% distortion or -94 dB. This may be just as good or a bit better than Denon AVR; definitely better than what Rotel is advertising.
 

Beershaun

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All amps sound the same until they clip. There are fifty shades of clipping.
Yep. Thats why the Rotel was my choice. More power+splitting the subwoofer out means less chance of clipping the amps with the mains.

You can download the Rotel owners manual here from their website if folks want to dive into it's capabilities and how it could be set up:https://www.rotel.com/sites/default/files/product/manuals/ra1592mkii_om_en.pdf

Here is the manual for the CXA81: https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002695458-CXA61-81-Manual

Here is the spec sheet for the JBL (no owners manual download): https://www.jblsynthesis.com/on/dem...8202/pdfs/SC03953_JBL SA750 Spec Sheet_HR.pdf

I find its important to read the details on how the system works to see if you can do exactly what you want to do with an integrated amp.

For example: Does the Rotel actually have a crossover for the mains if a subwoofer is selected or just a simple low pass filter for the sub out?
 
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Ron Texas

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Amplifiers have no sound. The sound comes from speakers and their interaction with the room.
 
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