Is The Revel Ultima Salon2 STILL the State Of The Art?

[a4eaudio]

Salon2 is SOTA? Since when?

SOTA is not defined. So the Salon2 is state of the art as soon as someone posts on a forum that they are SOTA.

By the way, according to this thread a good proxy for SOTA is Harman Preference Score. In that case, assuming we are using the score with perfect sub and EQ, the Audio Smile Little British Monitor (with a 3-inch Dayton Audio woofer?) is better than the KEF Blade 2 Meta and Dutch and Dutch 8C.

 

[Chrispy]

SOTA is not defined. So the Salon2 is state of the art as soon as someone posts on a forum that they are SOTA.

By the way, according to this thread a good proxy for SOTA is Harman Preference Score. In that case, assuming we are using the score with perfect sub and EQ, the Audio Smile Little British Monitor (with a 3-inch Dayton Audio woofer?) is better than the KEF Blade 2 Meta and Dutch and Dutch 8C.

Good speakers, SOTA seems a stretch.

 

[MattHooper]

SOTA is not defined. So the Salon2 is state of the art as soon as someone posts on a forum that they are SOTA.

By the way, according to this thread a good proxy for SOTA is Harman Preference Score. In that case, assuming we are using the score with perfect sub and EQ, the Audio Smile Little British Monitor (with a 3-inch Dayton Audio woofer?) is better than the KEF Blade 2 Meta and Dutch and Dutch 8C.

One of the reasons for the thread is how the question also brings out what criteria people are using for SOTA and why,

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW my view of SOTA is the latest cutting edge, and don't see the Salon2 as that. IMHO

 

[jhaider]

I am sceptical that there have been major advances over the Salon2. But there’s also some wild and ambitious loudspeaker designs out there. I wouldn’t be surprised also if some of them offered certain compelling experiences over the Salon2, depending on what somebody’s goals are.

I think that's the most reasonable assessment. If what you want is a wide-pattern full-range forward-firing monopole (and that seems to be the sweet spot for most listeners) then you probably won't do much if any better than Salon2. Even if you consider well-executed speakers with similar design goals but much higher pricing, e.g. the big TADs or Vivids - which, come to think of it, aren't even that much newer, if at all. (KEF tend to be narrower dispersion than Revel/TAD/Vivid. Same applies to Genelec/Neumann.)

Now some of the modern cardioids are certainly interesting, and may have upper bass advantages in some or even most rooms. But they're also not as wide in pattern.

FWIW when we were looking speakers for a 2-channel system ca. late 2021 I surveyed the field, and landed on Gem2 - which is basically mostly the top part of Salon2, but with an 8" midbass instead of 6.5". And a cruder baffle, I don't recall ever comparing their measurements until today, and pulled the spins because I thought they may show how Gem2's less sculpted baffle may appear less resolving or transparent in the upper mids and treble. But, I was surprised to see Gem2 actually seems to offer smoother midrange directivity and sound power than Salon2 per the equivalent-methodology Harman measurements. (There are higher-rez scans of Salon2 but not Gem2.) See simplified Spinorama below, with just listening window, sound power, and directivity index. I'm not at all sure why that would be the case given the identical mid and tweeter, and baffle geometry differences that intuitively at least highly favor Salon2 (sculpted vs. flat with a step on either side).

In any event, Gem2s with appropriate bass support and room correction both sounds really nice in the sweet spot and is the best background music system I've yet encountered. You don't get the palpability of a well-spec'ed-and-tuned immersive system, but for 2 channel it's hard to beat. Never had an opportunity to compare directly with Salon2, alas. However, it was favorable experiences listening to Salon2 that led me to look at Gem2 in the first place.

 

[kyuu]

By the way, addressing a prior comment, and heresy in these parts, I would not at all put the Genelec 8361 in the same league as the Salon 2, not even close. YMMV of course.

I based that on not just the measurements, but also Amir's review. Amir certainly has a great deal of experience with the Salon 2, and while he didn't directly compare them of course he certainly gave the 8361a his highest praise. I would be curious what @amirm thinks on this topic.

 

[MarkS]

Salon 2 spin is nothing special by modern standards.

 

[AudioJester]

Salon 2 spin is nothing special by modern standards.

View attachment 494787



View attachment 494790

Need to consider spl and distortion, not just frequency response and radiation

 

[staticV3]

Need to consider spl and distortion, not just frequency response and radiation

Please link SPL and distortion measurements of the Salon 2, otherwise we can't consider

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Just shouting this out... Name a few passive speakers that surpass the Salon 2 in important metrics. e.g. FR, THD, Directivity, Compression, Linearity. other parameters that are essential in to assess the quality and fidelity of a loudspeaker... ?
As an aside, Cardioid comes often in discussions about SOTA in speakers. It is a solution to specific problems, not a panacea. SOTA results can be achieved with non cardioid speakers...

 

[Oddball]

I have been drooling over Salon 2 for a while. But then there are 328 BEs that are apparently close, if not better, and probably more serviceable than Saloon 2. If I had to pull the trigger it would be 328s.

Did not end up with either of them though. It's a classic story. Fell in love with another one.

 

[staticV3]

Name a few passive speakers that surpass the Salon 2 in important metrics. e.g. FR, THD, Directivity, Compression, Linearity. other parameters that are essential in to assess the quality and fidelity of a loudspeaker... ?

I've only be able to find measurements of the Salon2's FR, directivity, and some limited decay, over on Stereophile and Spinorama.

To compare the Salon2 to other speakers in the other metrics you've listed above, we would need to have measurements of the Salon2 in these metrics.

If you've found any (besides Stereophile/Spinorama), then please link them.

 

[kemmler3D]

I think for you to point at one speaker and say it's all-around SOTA not just "SOTA in XYZ metric" you would need:

• Full range or effectively so
• Among the lowest or the lowest distortion at >94dB SPL
• Among the best or the best directivity on the market
• Among the smoothest or the smoothest on-axis FR

The Salon 2 did all this, so I think it earned the title at the time, but today I think you'd also want to see:

• Cardioid bass
• Built-in room correction (if active)
• Very good if not perfect time alignment / phase

And to @Chrispy 's point maybe even something more cutting edge than the above.

 

[kyuu]

• Cardioid bass

I'm not sure I would want to hinge a "SOTA" label on cardioid bass. It has obvious benefits, of course, but it also has downsides. Besides, if you stick the speaker in the wall then you limit bass directivity to plus-or-minus 90-degrees down to zero Hertz, so obviously a SOTA speaker has to be in-wall.

 

[levimax]

Dynamic speakers have been around for over 100 years now and are physical transducers so even though there are constant technological advances, the improvements, especially at the high end, are incremental. Salon 2's, even though they came out in 2009, are still very competitive. While I have never heard them, I am intrigued with the Danley HRE1's, full range with 132 dB output should make for a very dynamic listening experience. https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/hre-home/

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm not sure I would want to hinge a "SOTA" label on cardioid bass. It has obvious benefits, of course, but it also has downsides. Besides, if you stick the speaker in the wall then you limit bass directivity to plus-or-minus 90-degrees down to zero Hertz, so obviously a SOTA speaker has to be in-wall.

I haven't even heard it myself, so can't comment really cogently on this, but people who have heard it (@MKR in this thread) seem to really like it. And, as far as "state of the art" goes, it's a technology that is more or less at the forefront in consumer audio.

So I guess this is the distinction between SOTA being a "best overall" thing, and whether a speaker is actually the best for you / your room.

 

[MattHooper]

So I guess this is the distinction between SOTA being a "best overall" thing, and whether a speaker is actually the best for you / your room.

Yes, you could say there’s that element.

Regarding cardiod designs, my only experience is having heard/auditioned the Kii Audio Three numerous times. The benefit of the cardiod bass was most evident the times that speaker was pushed closer to the back wall, where it maintained a sense of even bass response even in those conditions. But I didn’t find it made as big an impression when that was pulled out from the back wall, or was compared to other loudspeakers that have been more carefully placed in the room. (My own included).
It certainly wasn’t a game changer at all in terms of my impressions compared to other good non cardioid designs.

 

[MKR]

I'm not sure I would want to hinge a "SOTA" label on cardioid bass. It has obvious benefits, of course, but it also has downsides. Besides, if you stick the speaker in the wall then you limit bass directivity to plus-or-minus 90-degrees down to zero Hertz, so obviously a SOTA speaker has to be in-wall.

And what would those downsides be?

 

[Jiraya369]

kef's blade will take those honours now and i don't really see why not.

outstanding directivity, compression is not an issue at all, basically full range, top notch multitone distortion performance as well and the coaxial design allows for vertical movement without losing much.

But honestly, I don't see why something like the Neumann KH420G, Genelec 8361A or even any other lower end monitors from these brands/Ascilab speakers paired with subwoofers would not result in a "state of the art" listening experience.

I personally think the Salon2 was great for its time but we've come a long way. We can't exactly "beat" the Salon2, it was a great speaker, we can just either lower the price or add feature or two here and there. The KEF has the coaxial driver allowing vertical freedom, neumann and genelecs are active and far cheaper and the kii three/d&d 8c are cardioid so their full range response will actually be beneficial.

Wonder how a KEF Reference 1 Meta with 2-4 subs would compare to a Salon2 in terms of blind listening tests. Would the stronger yet smoother low end of the former pairing not win out? If yes, then what exactly makes a speaker SOTA? Its own merits or what it can do with a sub that would result in a SOTA listening experience?

 

[kemmler3D]

And what would those downsides be?

Lower output / higher distortion for a given set of drivers, I think?