Is The Revel Ultima Salon2 STILL the State Of The Art?

[MarkS]

This assumes "SOTA" means flattest possible line. I think that's a silly way to define SOTA.

Preference score is an even worse way to determine SOTA.

Flat line is the ideal. Constant directivity is the ideal. Zero distortion is the ideal. Salon2 misses badly (by modern standards) on the first two.

If you have a different way to judge how close a speaker is to SOTA, please state it.

 

[TWK]

When John Atkinson was asked about the best speaker he had ever heard a few years ago, after testing 750, this is what he had to say:

I went to a big audio show in Las Vegas in 2008 and they had the Revel Salon2s in several places. Most speakers sound awful at the shows, I remembered that the Salon2s sounded wonderful no matter where they were, small room, big room tucked in a corner, and with all different types of gear. Years later I saw the John Atkinson speaking event that you note and without hesitation he mentions that Salon2 as the ones that he missed the most. I bought a pair and never looked back. My end game speakers after having many others. I had the same though process, John A has more experience with speakers than I ever will in several lifetimes. His immediate reaction seemed so genuine and it completely backed up my own experience. Easy decision for me and an end game. Glad to see someone so knowledgeable having the same though process.

 

[bigguyca]

Actually no. Simple frequency response measurements show how fast a speaker's drivers move, and getting them to move fast enough is not at all an issue. The issue is getting them to move enough air at that speed when the sound gets loud, either quickly or steadily: failure to do so is compression. Compression is heard as a lack of dynamics. Another issue is distortion: when the speaker gets loud, does it produce extraneous sounds that are not in the signal? This can also result in a perception of lack of dynamics.

You have provided a ridiculous answer!!!

You are demonstrating remarkable cluelessness in how a driver in a loudspeaker makes sound. Sound is made when the driver is accelerating, the greater the acceleration the higher the SPL. When the driver has its greatest velocity or in simple terms, speed, the driver is not accelerating and is not contributing to the SPL level.

Evidently you missed or didn't understand very basic physics. Force = mass x acceleration NOT velocity and NOT speed.

With the AI tools that are available I'd ask you take a few minutes of your precious time to have one of our AI "friends" provide a basic education in the subject.

The tone here is intentional since you are providing such completely wrong information that may be accepted by other members as true which in unacceptable. It is also impossible to understand more advanced concepts if the basics are completely misunderstood.

 

[MarkS]

You misunderstood what I wrote, which was in response to the comment "how does this [compression and distortion measurements] show dynamic capability? Doesn't "dynamic" need a time component?" Nothing you wrote contradicts anything that I wrote. In particular, when I wrote that "getting [drivers] to move fast enough is not at all an issue", I meant "fast enough" to encompass both velocity and acceleration, eg, moving in-and-out sinusoidally at a given frequency. It is easy to get drivers to do this at low amplitude, much harder at high amplitude. You are correct that it is the acceleration of the driver that applies force to the air, but I never said otherwise.

 

[Lsc]

I went to a big audio show in Las Vegas in 2008 and they had the Revel Salon2s in several places. Most speakers sound awful at the shows, I remembered that the Salon2s sounded wonderful no matter where they were, small room, big room tucked in a corner, and with all different types of gear. Years later I saw the John Atkinson speaking event that you note and without hesitation he mentions that Salon2 as the ones that he missed the most. I bought a pair and never looked back. My end game speakers after having many others. I had the same thought process, John A has more experience with speakers than I ever will in several lifetimes. His immediate reaction seemed so genuine and it completely backed up my own experience. Easy decision for me and an end game. Glad to see someone so knowledgeable having the same thought process.

I had a similar experience around 2010 with the studio2. My local dealer (now closed) had a demo day. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded and I had listened to the B&W 802D (I believe) the previous day. The sound was so good. Also listened to the salon2 a couple years later…the bass was unforgettable along with everything else.

Also very glad I was able to get a pair then the voice2 a year later. I wasn’t sure that this is my end game but it’s seems more like it as time passes.

 

[Scott Borduin]

The spinorama of the 228 BE is quite a bit smoother than that of the Salon 2, more like the examples posted in this thread (AsciLab, Genelec etc) - most of which have too narrow directivity compared to the Salon 2 in my opinion, and it might well be that the slightly wider directivity of the Salon 2 (providing spaciousness and envelopment) would be preferred over any of these more modern, "technically perfect" examples.

This is the distinction that I think sets the Salon2 apart from many other elite measuring speakers: the very wide dispersion and diffraction-minimizing baffle. The subjective descriptions of Salon2 sound all seem to emphasize how spacious, silky, seductive, etc. they sound even compared with other great speakers. For instance, these observations from a Revel/JBL/Perlisten dealer: https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64199056/ Those subjective observations correlate well with my own experience. I've owned Salon2 for 8 years now (purchased for $9K with shipping off of Audiogon!) and I'm constantly impressed by how the system just vanishes into the music. For my listening habits, primarily classical, I don't think these can be significantly bettered. Unless Revel actually releases a Salon3, which I couldn't justify buying anyway

BTW, these are part of a multi-channel system with an SDP-75 (JBL branded Trinnov) processor, and that processor provides Salon2-specific EQ tunings based on the spinorama data. I can't say how much that changes the subjective SQ - I suspect not that much.

 

[Imakeller]

In response to the question posed by the OP, yes, I still consider Salon2’s to be state-of-the-art. They were only “just” discontinued in 2024, and have yet to be supplanted in Revel’s lineup IMHO. Unless they add an active crossover, or take a half-measure by doing AEQ, I don’t know how much better results we could expect in “state-of-the-art”.

 

[Lsc]

This is the distinction that I think sets the Salon2 apart from many other elite measuring speakers: the very wide dispersion and diffraction-minimizing baffle. The subjective descriptions of Salon2 sound all seem to emphasize how spacious, silky, seductive, etc. they sound even compared with other great speakers. For instance, these observations from a Revel/JBL/Perlisten dealer: https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64199056/ Those subjective observations correlate well with my own experience. I've owned Salon2 for 8 years now (purchased for $9K with shipping off of Audiogon!) and I'm constantly impressed by how the system just vanishes into the music. For my listening habits, primarily classical, I don't think these can be significantly bettered. Unless Revel actually releases a Salon3, which I couldn't justify buying anyway

BTW, these are part of a multi-channel system with an SDP-75 (JBL branded Trinnov) processor, and that processor provides Salon2-specific EQ tunings based on the spinorama data. I can't say how much that changes the subjective SQ - I suspect not that much.

You are currently doing the anechoic eq? I didn’t know that they had that for the salon2. I just learned about it with the new performa4 / Arcam speakers. Very cool!

 

[Scott Borduin]

You are currently doing the anechoic eq? I didn’t know that they had that for the salon2. I just learned about it with the new performa4 / Arcam speakers. Very cool!

Yes, the AEQ is available for most of the JBL Synthesis line, as well as a number of the Revel line. In my case, the SDP-75 provides AEQ for the Salon2/Voice2 LCR. It also has tunings for all of my surround JBL 705i speakers, which require quite large digital EQ manipulations as part of the design. From what I can determine, the AEQ for the Revel line is based on correcting residual resonances in the listening window spinorama.

 

[Lsc]

Yes, the AEQ is available for most of the JBL Synthesis line, as well as a number of the Revel line. In my case, the SDP-75 provides AEQ for the Salon2/Voice2 LCR. It also has tunings for all of my surround JBL 705i speakers, which require quite large digital EQ manipulations as part of the design. From what I can determine, the AEQ for the Revel line is based on correcting residual resonances in the listening window spinorama.

Have you tried to a/b the salon2 with the AEQ on and off? I’m curious to see how much this helps.

The fact that all the JBL synthesis speakers get this type of tuning is pretty impressive especially using Trinnov’s technology.

 

[Imakeller]

Have you tried to a/b the salon2 with the AEQ on and off? I’m curious to see how much this helps.

The fact that all the JBL synthesis speakers get this type of tuning is pretty impressive especially using Trinnov’s technology.

@jhaider made a reference to spinorama.org in another thread that is relevant here since that site has Salon2 information.

Measurements for speaker Revel Ultima2 Salon2

www.spinorama.org

“In any event, AEQ is fundamentally not much different from the EQ setting offered by, e.g., @pierre at https://www.spinorama.org/. Yes, in theory it should be better because it should be tuned by a human who knows the product. In any event, for a Revel product external EQ should not be a selling point, IMO. If you look through spinorama.org at previous and current gen Revels, EQ based on anechoic data does not have much impact. On the old Performa3's, probably the biggest impact is taking down the mid-treble resonance of that SB Acoustics tweeter (I've played with 4 and they all had it), so it's innate to the tweeter IMO). Everything else is probably more for the eyes than the ears.”

 

[Scott Borduin]

“In any event, AEQ is fundamentally not much different from the EQ setting offered by, e.g., @pierre at https://www.spinorama.org/. Yes, in theory it should be better because it should be tuned by a human who knows the product. In any event, for a Revel product external EQ should not be a selling point, IMO. If you look through spinorama.org at previous and current gen Revels, EQ based on anechoic data does not have much impact. On the old Performa3's, probably the biggest impact is taking down the mid-treble resonance of that SB Acoustics tweeter (I've played with 4 and they all had it), so it's innate to the tweeter IMO). Everything else is probably more for the eyes than the ears.”

I think this is quite likely true. I've occasionally wondered just what the Harman-defined AEQ correction is, I might now have the motivation to actually measure it.

 

[Lsc]

I think this is quite likely true. I've occasionally wondered just what the Harman-defined AEQ correction is, I might now have the motivation to actually measure it.

The spinorma link the Imakeller provided above has the after eq measurements. It looks definitely better but not perfect like an amplifier. So that’s what you are running, in other words all else equal, your salon2 should measure and sound better than mine.

 

[Imakeller]

The spinorma link the Imakeller provided above has the after eq measurements. It looks definitely better but not perfect like an amplifier. So that’s what you are running, in other words all else equal, your salon2 should measure and sound better than mine.

At the end of the day, it’s what the final in-room measurements are (and the subjective sound quality) that matter. So, it’s hard to say whether @Scott Borduin or you are better off in that regard. I have a feeling we’re all doing all right

 

[Lsc]

At the end of the day, it’s what the final in-room measurements are (and the subjective sound quality) that matter. So, it’s hard to say whether @Scott Borduin or you are better off in that regard. I have a feeling we’re all doing all right

I agree that none of our systems are lacking in sound quality. I like to think that Sonus Faber copied my setup when they designed the Suprema, - kidding of course.

 

[Scott Borduin]

Here is the AEQ response for Salon2 at the output of my SDP-75, compared to "flat" (I measured using analog output of Scarlett 2i2 into analog input of SDP-75, so there is a slight deviation from flat at the extremes). The curve looks rather more "intervensionist" than I might have imagined, although the magnitude of the corrections is not large:

 

[Imakeller]

Here is the AEQ response for Salon2 at the output of my SDP-75, compared to "flat" (I measured using analog output of Scarlett 2i2 into analog input of SDP-75, so there is a slight deviation from flat at the extremes). The curve looks rather more "intervensionist" than I might have imagined, although the magnitude of the corrections is not large:

View attachment 510450

So, roughly only +/-1dB 20Hz-20kHz. I’d say you’re looking good!

 

[Scott Borduin]

So, roughly only +/-1dB 20Hz-20kHz. I’d say you’re looking good!

To be clear, the blue curve represents the output of the processor as modified by the AEQ filter bank for Salon2, not a room measurement ...

Just for fun, here is the AEQ correction applied for Voice2:

And here is the AEQ set of filters required for JBL 705i:

Obviously the 705i was designed to use digital EQ from the start. Imagine trying to implement that transfer function using passive filters in the XO network ...

Interestingly, there are no AEQ settings available for the latest Revel Be line. The spins for those speakers are so textbook that they probably decided it was not useful.

 

[Imakeller]

Understood that the prior posted blue line wasn’t in-room; that would have been phenomenal if it was, but, still, very impressive. Hard to say the Salon2 isn’t still state-of-the-art looking at that. The 705i graph doesn’t look so pretty, but I will accept your explanation.

 

[Scott Borduin]

The 705i graph doesn’t look so pretty, but I will accept your explanation.

JBL explicitly requires the 705i to be used with JBL amps or processors that provide the necessary equalization. A lot of the JBL pro and home theater line is designed that way, the M2 for instance ...