Is The Revel Ultima Salon2 STILL the State Of The Art?

[RexrothPigeon]

Looking at measurements and theory is nice but without actually listening, there are many aspects of the speaker sound that’s not really known.

Like what? (genuine question, I'm no measurement reader expert)

 

[Lsc]

Like what? (genuine question, I'm no measurement reader expert)

I’m also not a measurement expert and don’t know what I’m reading 1/2 the time. Measurements don’t describe the scale and dynamics of a speaker. I used to own the Revel F228Be that I sold when I got the salon2 but I had them both for about a week or 2 and used to go back and forth.

The F228Be was very good speaker, especially its midrange. It does everything pretty well but the salon2 when playing side by side was at a different level when it came to the huge sound that it outputted. Better imaging and dynamics. It wasn’t the fact that the salon2 go down lower in bass, but the mid-bass punch is far more pronounced.

But if you look at the measurements, you’d probably say the F228Be is a better speaker.

Imho, reading measurements to determine how good a speaker is are for the nerds who’d rather read about something vs. experiencing it. Yes it’s a good baseline, but it’s not the be all and end all. i used to read about how amazing Hawaii was. Until I was at there overlooking the ocean and the neighboring islands, that beautiful view when experiencing in read life 3D, is beyond anything I read. I prefer to listen to speakers since they emit sound and that’s the point of their existence vs. read about them.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Measurements don’t describe the scale and dynamics of a speaker.

They definitely can do so. These are measurable things...

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Imho, reading measurements to determine how good a speaker is are for the nerds who’d rather read about something vs. experiencing it.

No, this would be the case if people were advocating reading about speakers and never owning any, never listening to music through them. That bears zero resemblance to the truth.

 

[kyuu]

Imho, reading measurements to determine how good a speaker is are for the nerds who’d rather read about something vs. experiencing it.

Yeah, I'm sorry but that's nonsense. I'm assuming you either aren't familiar with the research in this area that kind of underpins this entire site, or you repudiate it.

Even practically speaking, the notion that you're going to pick through all the available speaker models on the market and pick the best one (whether objectively or even just to "your ears") by listening to all of them is absurd. Thanks to measurements I was able to find some excellent speakers for my setup that matched my requirements and budget on the first try (and avoid what would likely have been a much poorer purchase that I had nearly pulled the trigger on before I knew better). Spending a bunch of time doing sighted listening comparisons, in environments completely different from my room, would simply not have been nearly as instructive and useful as learning to read a spinorama.

 

[Lsc]

They definitely can do so. These are measurable things...

Which chart shows this?

 

[xanalog]

Which chart shows this?

I know that the new year is forcing us to spend more time on things we never contemplated before.
But may I recommend you spend some time going thru @amirm's thread about "Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?"

But if you are just looking for the shortest TL&DR for a specific chart; it may be best that you consult your favorite AI assistant to give you the lo-down.

 

[MarkS]

Which chart shows this?

Compression and distortion vs frequency at different volumes.

 

[Lsc]

I know that the new year is forcing us to spend more time on things we never contemplated before.
But may I recommend you spend some time going thru @amirm's thread about "Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?"

But if you are just looking for the shortest TL&DR for a specific chart; it may be best that you consult your favorite AI assistant to give you the lo-down.

Thanks! I’ll read this when I can’t sleep at some point vs. listening to some smooth jazz that puts me to sleep.

 

[Jiraya369]

Thanks! I’ll read this when I can’t sleep at some point vs. listening to some smooth jazz that puts me to sleep.

Erin's videos here taught me a lot and i dont think anyone can learn more about measurements outside of trying things out themselves. Watch videos from 8-15 and you'll feel like you're einstein lol

 

[Lsc]

Yeah, I'm sorry but that's nonsense. I'm assuming you either aren't familiar with the research in this area that kind of underpins this entire site, or you repudiate it.

Even practically speaking, the notion that you're going to pick through all the available speaker models on the market and pick the best one (whether objectively or even just to "your ears") by listening to all of them is absurd. Thanks to measurements I was able to find some excellent speakers for my setup that matched my requirements and budget on the first try (and avoid what would likely have been a much poorer purchase that I had nearly pulled the trigger on before I knew better). Spending a bunch of time doing sighted listening comparisons, in environments completely different from my room, would simply not have been nearly as instructive and useful as learning to read a spinorama.

The notion that someone has to listen to all of speakers out there is absurd, I agree. Also, the notion that you think this is what I mean is also absurd. Learning to read a spinorama is not a requirement to buying good speakers.

I usually read the highlights when a reviewer breaks down the measurements and it good enough to get the gist of it’s performance. I’m not saying that speaker measurements are not important, but knowing how to read measurements is optional when shopping for speakers. And I’m saying that actually listening to speakers is better than reading about them.

Yes I agree that if you don’t know anything about speakers and the various brands, you can make a less than optimal purchase. That’s with anything. Some basic research is always helpful.

I enjoy listening to different speakers. It sure beats reading spinoramas…but I guess everyone is different.

 

[Lsc]

Erin's videos here taught me a lot and i dont think anyone can learn more about measurements outside of trying things out themselves. Watch videos from 8-15 and you'll feel like you're einstein lol

I think we are going a little off the reservation here and it’s my fault for starting it. My point about measurements which I guess can be refuted is that measurements don’t always tell the whole story. This was in response to some diy bookshelf speakers in preproduction that measures “better” than the salon2 is a better speaker. I guess it could be but these opinions seem like they come from folks who have never heard the salons.

Either way, I don’t like to convince anyone what’s right or wrong as everyone is different and it doesn’t really matter. It’s just speaker talk anyway, pretty low priority hobby stuff.

 

[Jiraya369]

I think we are going a little off the reservation here and it’s my fault for starting it. My point about measurements which I guess can be refuted is that measurements don’t always tell the whole story. This was in response to some diy bookshelf speakers in preproduction that measures “better” than the salon2 is a better speaker. I guess it could be but these opinions seem like they come from folks who have never heard the salons.

Either way, I don’t like to convince anyone what’s right or wrong as everyone is different and it doesn’t really matter. It’s just speaker talk anyway, pretty low priority hobby stuff.

I was just trying to help you but well, by your point the room, the song selection, even your seating position could be variables.

Measurements tell us what the speaker is doing, everything else is an extra variable that the measurement of the speaker can't tell you. If you really want to know what's better you'd want to remove all biases as they're extra variables and compare A/B, thus blind A/B testing. And if you want to know where exactly the Salon2 is better, you need to measure that. It ain't rocket science. I don't need to touch molten lava to know it'll be hot af lol but a doctor wont be able to say i have a fever by doing an ultrasonic on me, he needs to do other tests. Each measurement/test shows a different thing, that simple.

You dont like to convince everyone but you're out here yapping man, good day.

 

[dagfinn]

Compression and distortion vs frequency at different volumes.

And how does this show dynamic capability? Doesn't "dynamic" need a time component?

 

[Lsc]

I was just trying to help you but well, by your point the room, the song selection, even your seating position could be variables.

Measurements tell us what the speaker is doing, everything else is an extra variable that the measurement of the speaker can't tell you. If you really want to know what's better you'd want to remove all biases as they're extra variables and compare A/B, thus blind A/B testing. And if you want to know where exactly the Salon2 is better, you need to measure that. It ain't rocket science. I don't need to touch molten lava to know it'll be hot af lol but a doctor wont be able to say i have a fever by doing an ultrasonic on me, he needs to do other tests. Each measurement/test shows a different thing, that simple.

You dont like to convince everyone but you're out here yapping man, good day.

I never said I didn’t know what measurements are. I said I don’t know how to read them.

SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Salon2 Loudspeakers (12/2009)

Enjoy!

Edit: Does this speaker measure better than the salon2? Thanks again for your help!

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Magico S5 Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

 

[Jiraya369]

I never said I didn’t know what measurements are. I said I don’t know how to read them.

SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Salon2 Loudspeakers (12/2009)

Enjoy!

Edit: Does this speaker measure better than the salon2? Thanks again for your help!

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Magico S5 Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Yeah and i sent you links that will help you understand measurements so you can read them.

from the given measurements i can't say personally. There's a lot of other things that Erin tests that helps to paint a better picture. Particularly the Estimated in room response, the horizontal/vertical directivity, multitone distortion and compression. But let's assume they perform like a KEF Reference 1 Meta bookshelf speaker, at this price point there's nothing to really "fix", all of em are linear and reasonably neutral, look good, have deep bass extension.

But honestly, the Salon does so much so well, I said it before, I don't think you can particularly top it. You can do the same thing in a different way, but not exactly top it.

For example, the Salon will throw a big wall of sound that is a bit diffused but the KEF Blade Meta will throw a precise soundstage that is a bit narrow. There's no right or wrong here. Both are linear, neutral speakers that get absurdly loud WITH EASE and dig DEEP in the bass. I personally think the KEF Blade Meta is better but for someone else the Revel will be better.

Or it could be that you like the speaker manufacturer/the dealer better, the history the brand has, maybe the size of the speakers or more importantly, the look of the speaker. So many things that are other variables towards liking something more. But objectively speaking, The Magico you sent, the KEF Blade Meta and the Revel Salon, are to me, practically flawless

 

[MarkS]

And how does this [compression and distortion measurements] show dynamic capability? Doesn't "dynamic" need a time component?

Actually no. Simple frequency response measurements show how fast a speaker's drivers move, and getting them to move fast enough is not at all an issue. The issue is getting them to move enough air at that speed when the sound gets loud, either quickly or steadily: failure to do so is compression. Compression is heard as a lack of dynamics. Another issue is distortion: when the speaker gets loud, does it produce extraneous sounds that are not in the signal? This can also result in a perception of lack of dynamics.

 

[Ziltoe]

'Is The Revel Ultima Salon2 STILL the State Of The Art?'

Ne.

​

 

[MarkS]

Measurements of the Salon2 are nowhere close to SOTA. It's Olive score does not crack the top 50 on spinorama.org.

Furthermore no one praising the sound here has heard it under blind conditions (possibly excepting Kal and @amirm and of course Floyd Toole and maybe others who have done so in the Harman speaker-shuffling listening lab), so we have to question whether visual bias has played a role in these assessments.

 

[kyuu]

Measurements of the Salon2 are nowhere close to SOTA.

This assumes "SOTA" means flattest possible line. I think that's a silly way to define SOTA.

It's Olive score does not crack the top 50 on spinorama.org.

Preference score is an even worse way to determine SOTA.