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Is the preamp solved?

what's the verdict?
I don't understand the question. If you want MY opinion, I posted above.

Sometimes you need one, often these days you don't, it depends on your sources and signal chain.

The main myth being busted is the idea that adding a preamp to the chain is some sort of SQ magic bullet. It is not targeted much above lower-intermediate knowledge level.

I think it likely will be enlightening to OP.

If you prefer to scan the transcript, that will save time compared to watching the video in real time.
 
I don't understand the question. If you want MY opinion, I posted above.

Sometimes you need one, often these days you don't, it depends on your sources and signal chain.

The main myth being busted is the idea that adding a preamp to the chain is some sort of SQ magic bullet. It is not targeted much above lower-intermediate knowledge level.

I think it likely will be enlightening to OP.

If you prefer to scan the transcript, that will save time compared to watching the video in real time.
Please--this is a standard request--when you post a video or a link to an external article, provide enough of a summary to support the discussion without forcing people to follow the link to simply know what point it supports or rejects. Your third sentence above does that.

Rick "needs this, too" Denney
 
Can one actually hear the improvement of Dirac-ART over, say, Audyssey, if both achieve a flat spectral tilt, attenuation of resonances, correction of broad response errors, and full range?
Yes it's best feature is that it greatly improves decay, something Audyssey can not do.
 
Im not denying that at all. I have a Wiim Ultra into a Rotel integrated amp with B&W 706 s2's in one room. Fantastic system, that if that was all I had, I would be very happy. But it doesn't sound as good as my Classé pre-amp paired with my Proceed HPA-2 and Dali Oberon 7s. These two systems are wildly different, I get it, but I moved the Wiim to the little system because it didn't sound as good my Cambridge CXN100. I'm not disputing the quality of the Wiim for the money. I am simply responding to OP who was trying to hash out if there is any difference between old "expensive" pre-amps, a Wiim, or a Denon whatever. All I said, was that there is absolutely a difference between a Denon mass market box and some well designed pre-amp. Again, I am not disputing that many modern devices are more capable than ever before, but that doesn't make them necessarily equal.
I find it fascinating if true, it means that the preamp is not solved. If a new digital preamp is not better or same as the expensive old once yet. Well I still not know why but it would explain the ridiculous high prices these preamps have today. A power amp you can buy for 100$ that costed 1000$ but a preamp not chance.
 
I find it fascinating if true, it means that the preamp is not solved. If a new digital preamp is not better or same as the expensive old once yet. Well I still not know why but it would explain the ridiculous high prices these preamps have today. A power amp you can buy for 100$ that costed 1000$ but a preamp not chance.
Two very different speakers presumably in different rooms. The preamplification wouldn't be where I'd look first for why the sound quality was different between them.
 
Two very different speakers presumably in different rooms. The preamplification wouldn't be where I'd look first for why the sound quality was different between them.
Yes. If the presence of a competent preamp makes a verifiably noticeable difference in the sound (assuming that all alternatives provide an appropriate--and identical--gain structure), then something's wrong.

There are mistakes people can make because of their choice of preamps. One well-respected preamp of yore inverted the phase of the signals going through it, which is itself not a problem, but which fundamentally changes the way other systems around it (example: subwoofers) have to be integrated. And more equipment certainly does mean more potential failure points, especially relevant with vintage equipment.

Rick "suspecting gain structure mistakes first when preamps are being blamed for something" Denney
 
I find it fascinating if true, it means that the preamp is not solved. If a new digital preamp is not better or same as the expensive old once yet.
You think "preamp is solved" means the same thing as "it does not matter which one you buy" ???

As several posts besides just me have tried to clarify, there are hundreds of functionality combinations that can be called "a preamp". You need to state why YOUR system needs one, i.e. what functionality is missing, for what kind of sources?


An active gain volume control is very different from one that is only an attenuator.

Volume control by itself is nowhere NEAR "solved" in that sense!

A passive analog source switcher might be all that's needed - is that "a preamp?"

Above were posts that implied DSP room correction, bass management and delay / phase correction were included in what we TODAY might call preamp functionality, which in turn implies that EVERY function included in AVRs and processing boxes besides the power stage can be included in the list.

Adapting / converting between true-balanced and RCA connectors, or between +4dBu/-10dBV levels on output / sensitivity on inputs

Adapting from one digital protocol to another, dealing with signal clocking issues

These are all technically "pre-amp issues" but have nothing to do with "preamps" as the product category from the last century.

Go look at say an Adcom GFP-555 (as a random example) and choose which specific functions you think YOUR system requires.

If you cannot be specific about that, there is no meaningful discussion

and you likely will see no benefit - may even degrade SQ by picking "the wrong box", whether old or new, cheap or pricey does not matter so much.
 
Another video on this topic, well worth watching. This from Paul at PS Audio


He likes the sound enhancement they can bring, including tube inaccuracies
 
Mostly still of value if you are using an amp that does not have volume control, or you don't want to rely on digital source volume control. I have a hand-built single RCA in-out passive preamp that is sometimes of value, the new mini Fosi P4 3-RCA preamp (a great value), Schiit Saga 2 preamp (4-RCA, 64-stepped resistor ladder volume control, wonderful) and older Nikko and NAD classic preamps, which come in handy for tape monitoring needs etc.

At under $100, the Fosi P4 preamp is an especially nice value.
Any class A analog discrete preamp ,3 rca in/ 1 rca out with inbuilt power supply.Iam now using fosi p4
 
I find it fascinating if true, it means that the preamp is not solved. If a new digital preamp is not better or same as the expensive old once yet. Well I still not know why but it would explain the ridiculous high prices these preamps have today. A power amp you can buy for 100$ that costed 1000$ but a preamp not chance.
You mustn't forget people's perceptual biases. Without a guided and blinded test, the result is more likely to reflect wishful thinking than reality.

The best preamplifier is no preamplifier at all.
Assuming the match between source and amplifier is perfect, a preamplifier can't improve anything, and at best, it won't make it worse.
Anyone who believes otherwise has missed fundamental concepts about music and physics, or they're a believer in fairy tales.

The primary function of a preamplifier is to amplify the source signal sufficiently to drive the power amplifiers, at least up to the desired volume. The second function is volume control, and the third is the ability to switch between different sources.
Everything after that is just unnecessary bells and whistles, and often useless baggage.

But why do you need a preamplifier these days with most digital sources? Actually, you don't.
With the D200, SMSL has taken exactly the right approach. DACs already output the signal with the necessary amplification. Therefore, the DAC only needs an analog volume control with an analog output stage (buffer), just like any good preamplifier, and that's precisely what you'll find in the D200.
Analog devices, such as a high-quality turntable with a phono preamp or a tape recorder, can be connected to the D200 losslessly using an affordable and good ADC.

In my circle of acquaintances and friends, several really expensive preamplifiers have had to make way for a D200 with an ADC, even those costing more than 30 times as much. The latter had some initial reservations, but the blind test was convincing enough.
 
Besides gain control and source switching I like to have

L/R balance

tone controls

loudness compensation

and especially monitor loops.

These do not necessarily "require" getting an OG preamp, but IMO it's a relatively inexpensive and simple path.
 
Besides gain control and source switching I like to have

L/R balance

tone controls

loudness compensation

and especially monitor loops.

These do not necessarily "require" getting an OG preamp, but IMO it's a relatively inexpensive and simple path.
And those are precisely the kinds of extra gimmicks that, in most preamps (and integrated amplifiers too), ruin the measurements, distortion values, and transparency. That's why my devices don't have any of that.
It's all better handled digitally.

What do you use monitor loops for?
 
So far I'm still at the testing / exploration phase, but the goal is being able to easily take effects processing in / out of the chain, A/B compare digital vs analog tools vs a "cleaner" path

rather than having to physically re-wire the interconnects.

Many preamps have bypass "tone in" controls for that "straight wire" principle.

If I ever detect unwanted coloration I'll move on, not like this sort of gear is expensive
 
Another video on this topic, well worth watching. This from Paul at PS Audio
Weeeeelllllll ...

He likes the sound enhancement they can bring, including tube inaccuracies
He likes the sound of money that is enhancing his bank account when he sells yet another product.
 
You think "preamp is solved" means the same thing as "it does not matter which one you buy" ???

As several posts besides just me have tried to clarify, there are hundreds of functionality combinations that can be called "a preamp". You need to state why YOUR system needs one, i.e. what functionality is missing, for what kind of sources?


An active gain volume control is very different from one that is only an attenuator.

Volume control by itself is nowhere NEAR "solved" in that sense!

A passive analog source switcher might be all that's needed - is that "a preamp?"

Above were posts that implied DSP room correction, bass management and delay / phase correction were included in what we TODAY might call preamp functionality, which in turn implies that EVERY function included in AVRs and processing boxes besides the power stage can be included in the list.

Adapting / converting between true-balanced and RCA connectors, or between +4dBu/-10dBV levels on output / sensitivity on inputs

Adapting from one digital protocol to another, dealing with signal clocking issues

These are all technically "pre-amp issues" but have nothing to do with "preamps" as the product category from the last century.

Go look at say an Adcom GFP-555 (as a random example) and choose which specific functions you think YOUR system requires.

If you cannot be specific about that, there is no meaningful discussion

and you likely will see no benefit - may even degrade SQ by picking "the wrong box", whether old or new, cheap or pricey does not matter so much.
Well I try to be more specific. If you have a dac with preamp that can amplify the signal to the power amp without adding anything or degrading the signal.
-Why would you pay fortune for a volume knob?
If they are no quality difference I would say it’s solved just as the dac. If I buy a smsl dac or a 800$ DAC I won’t hear or measure the difference. Problem solved
That’s why I could not understand the second hand price of the preamp more expensive than power amps
 
I definitely agree that most users in most contexts should not pay "a lot" for functionalities performed by the OG preamp units, nor for such "a preamp". However, if I paid say $500 to get say a reconditioned GFA-555 (pricey to me) and then saw a matching GFP that got me some cool functionality for another $120

and they look real cool matched together on my stack / rack

I see that as good value, even if I needed NO extra gain control.

Same with relatively pricier gear, for someone wealthier. They may even put a high value on the reputation or scarcity prestige.

Why would you pay (a) fortune for a volume knob?
Well I happen to just LOVE a substantial knob close at hand to my listening position, ideally horizontally mounted. With a massive, precisely damped but responsive tactile feel, ideally deeply knurled, CNC machined with a lead-shot base to stay put, a fluid resistance so turns smooth as butter, or OTOH stepped detents

This is not "a preamp" if it is analog and passive, but besides having to pay a lot for the above, to get fully transparent, no added noise or distortion, say based on a top notch relay-ladder attenuator you must pay even more.

Is it necessary? of course not! Some people are happy enough using a remote or an app on their phone.

But FOR ME the Big Knob is the cherry on top of my beloved clean powerful System, and if it costs more than my most expensive amp, so be it...
 
Ok so the feeling in the knob is what's at stake here?
Ahm, a phone doesn't work for you unless it is close at hand or on your person. Mine is rarely in one of those positions. And I would not want to have it near me if I am listening to my stereo. Why would I want something that someone can call me & interrupt my relaxing to be near me when I am relaxing?
I have quite a few speakers and many many power amps here and there after years of hifi interest but only one NAD preamp.
Preamps are ridiculous expensive and extreme hard to find second hand. I wonder why. Power amp are every where.
At the same time streamers are also difficult to find to a normal price and that are easy to control. Cellphones are crazy bad since they always have limitations of sound sources control. Like why would I not like to stream music to the stereo if some one calls me etc etc idiotic limitation in music handling sources and mixing. I can’t control come individual to different sources it’s just a mess.

I wish to have a few stereos here and there.
The wiim ultra acts as both streamer and presmp one of very few…I read the review here
they cost much more now than a year ago almost 500$ but are they worth it?
Are they as good as a 500$ Rotel or NAD preamp? How big are the difference in sound quality and the fact that the steamer are in the same box?
Are the preamp solved like the dac or how does it work? Would be grate with Dirac but I guess it be in the future

Apt Holman Preamplifier Review (vintage Audio)​

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amirm

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Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)

JoinedFeb 13, 2016Messages49,610Likes294,382LocationSeattle Area
  • Nov 21, 2021
  • This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apt Holman vintage preamplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and has been refurbished by QuirkAudio.

    The look is a cross between hifi and pro gear:

    Apt Holman Preamplifier Review Phono  Vintage Stereo.jpg


    Other than some scratches on top, the unit is a very good cosmetic shape. Rear connections are extensive:

    Apt Holman Preamplifier Review back panel Phono  Vintage Stereo.jpg


    Yes, there was a time we had outlets in the back of stereos. The more there was, the higher end the gear was said to be! Wonder what led to their demise.

    In case you are wondering as I did when I was first contacted about this unit, Holman is Tomlinson Holman or the T in THX (now works for Apple). Owner sent me the service manual which is not only extensive but has excellent tutorials on the design, instruments to test it with, and pages and pages of detail. It is incredible what used to be available compared to now.

    Apt Holman Measurements
    Let's start with our dashboard input. I selected Tape 1 as input but oddly front panel selector doesn't have Tape 1. I set it to Aux 1 and then pushed Tape 1 switch:

    Apt Holman Preamplifier Measurements Vintage Stereo.png


    Wow, this is excellent! I expected SINAD in 60s or 70s and here we have 90 dB. It is dominated by second harmonic at that level. Even more impressive is the signal to noise ratio with same unity gain:
    Apt Holman Preamplifier Measurements SNR Vintage Stereo.png
IMG_5492.JPG

IMG_5493.JPG

IMG_5488.JPG
 
$400-600 on eBay, guaranteed working so be ready to test right away, see how much a restore costs
 
Ordered a T20 and A20 to compare to my old Sony AVR. If I like it I'll end up just keeping the T20.
 
A preamp is actually little more than a switching system allowing a variety of sources to be connected to one or more destinations.
It may or may not include active amplification (e.g., for headphones) and/or equalization (RIAA phono or tone controls) but does usually include attenuation in the form of a volume control.
Most preamps these days still operate in the analog domain, accepting the output of a DAC as one of their sources.
The output of most preamps are connected directly to power amplifiers (and then to speakers).
A few preamps incorporate internal crossovers or connect to external crossovers so that speakers can be bi-amped or tri-amped, allowing for things like subwoofers.
Most sources these days are "line level" and are simply passed through.
Some sources need loop-back switching (e.g., old fashioned analog tape recorders) or external parametric equalizers.
Vinyl reproduction needs specific RIAA equalization and amplification to reach standard line level signal strength.
Phono preamps, specific to vinyl reproduction may be separate units or may be included in a more comprehensive preamp device.
 
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