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Is the preamp solved?
- Thread starter Arc78
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Well I do not understand this entirely but the wiim ultra have everything of complexity you talk about and cost 400$ the older preamps have almost none of these features but sells second hand like 1000$ and the really expensive ones is it really better than an Denon x4800 with Dirac rubbing power amp? I have had the difference in the power amp that I’ve is huge but the preamp is the same here? That it matters that much?
The Wiim is great, but it isn't a real pre-amp. It also has very few inputs, which is probably one reason why they are able to make it for the price point it is at. The short answer is yes, most pre-amps cost more because they are quite a bit more complicated. While Denon AVR's are solid, they are just not the same as a higher end, dedicated pre-amp and amp combo. I think for AVR's, the nicest sounding "mainstream" units are from Anthem, and they aren't exactly a household name. I'm using an old Classé CT-SSP as a pre-amp, I would gladly put it up against any current $1000 Denon or comparable AVR, even if it was using a nice external amp.
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How so? What do these dedicated combos do that they cannot do? And why do you think that's the case?
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Are you really comparing a low-midrange AVR to 8k speperates? If id need XLR I might consider something other than the x4xxxx series, but I don't. And if I I did I would still consider a could of AVRs as options.
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I do not use DSP nor receivers nor AV multichannel but do use passive speakers + power amps.
These days "pre-amps" is just a cluster of functionalities often built into source gear, so what YOU actually need to buy separately will vary.
Source switcher is all that's needed in front of a Wiim, and simple passive units are good value.
Handling phono (turntable) input often requires a separate pre-amp.
Some pre-amps include a decent headphone amp, or (more rare) microphone input.
...
Volume control is tricky to get "perfect" so if your source (or amp) does not do that well a good one can be costly.
You may need active line-level boost for gain matching, and/or line buffering / impedance bridging, as opposed to passive attenuation.
Converting between consumer gear and pro-level signal, and/or XLR vs 1/4" vs RCA, and / or single-ended vs balanced connections, handling long wire runs. These might technically be called "pre amp" functionality, but are usually handled by separate specialised components.
Same with eliminating "ground hum" issues
a Mute button can be handy, mono/stereo too.
L/R balance, even F/R fader for 4-channel
...
Tone controls and variable loudness are now out of fashion, and/or implemented in DSP-based tools as with Wiim. But some people want such EQ separate from sources, and some of those are happy to get the simple analog versions included in an old-school pre-amp.
OR, if you want separate "signal processors" applied to all sources, then in/out "monitor loops" are an important pre-amp feature, used to be called "tape loops"
Great for being able to enable/disable effects for A/B testing.
...
Bass management, controlling subwoofer crossovers and levels is possible, but rare in stereo-only pre-amps.
But some people use oddball devices like Schiit SYN that create separate 5.1 channels from stereo across multiple inputs, as pre-amps.
So YES "pre-amps are solved", in some sense by their functionalities being incorporated into many other categories if modern devices.
But in many systems having a standalone pre-amp makes sense, since even those claiming "all in one" status rarely handle all YOUR needs.
These days "pre-amps" is just a cluster of functionalities often built into source gear, so what YOU actually need to buy separately will vary.
Source switcher is all that's needed in front of a Wiim, and simple passive units are good value.
Handling phono (turntable) input often requires a separate pre-amp.
Some pre-amps include a decent headphone amp, or (more rare) microphone input.
...
Volume control is tricky to get "perfect" so if your source (or amp) does not do that well a good one can be costly.
You may need active line-level boost for gain matching, and/or line buffering / impedance bridging, as opposed to passive attenuation.
Converting between consumer gear and pro-level signal, and/or XLR vs 1/4" vs RCA, and / or single-ended vs balanced connections, handling long wire runs. These might technically be called "pre amp" functionality, but are usually handled by separate specialised components.
Same with eliminating "ground hum" issues
a Mute button can be handy, mono/stereo too.
L/R balance, even F/R fader for 4-channel
...
Tone controls and variable loudness are now out of fashion, and/or implemented in DSP-based tools as with Wiim. But some people want such EQ separate from sources, and some of those are happy to get the simple analog versions included in an old-school pre-amp.
OR, if you want separate "signal processors" applied to all sources, then in/out "monitor loops" are an important pre-amp feature, used to be called "tape loops"
Great for being able to enable/disable effects for A/B testing.
...
Bass management, controlling subwoofer crossovers and levels is possible, but rare in stereo-only pre-amps.
But some people use oddball devices like Schiit SYN that create separate 5.1 channels from stereo across multiple inputs, as pre-amps.
So YES "pre-amps are solved", in some sense by their functionalities being incorporated into many other categories if modern devices.
But in many systems having a standalone pre-amp makes sense, since even those claiming "all in one" status rarely handle all YOUR needs.
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All I have been trying to de is explain why pre-amps cost more than a $400 Wiim. He keeps talking about how the Wiim has everything for $400, or the $1000 Denon have everything he needs and he doesn't understand what the differences are. I'm just here trying to help the guy along his journey with my knowledge and experience.
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Still apples and oranges. For the cost the WiiM servers a certain market and makes sense for many for specific rooms.
There are so many statements in your post that I can't figure out what is the common denominator. Perhaps a summary would help to make any conclusions?
I think you should - you could be surprised if the speakers are at least standard quality, there are subs involved and Denon is on full Dirac package.
Yes cost structures have been revolutionized over the decades.
With computer chip-based components, cramming thousands of functions into one mass-produced box does not cost more than a more specialized one with very limited functionality.
With an analog product engineering very high SQ for just a few functions can cost a hundred times more, and will not appeal to the mass market.
So NO you do not "need" a "proper" pre-amp for SQ
unless you actually NEED one of the functions I outlined above, that is missing from your system.
Many wealthy people WANT to show off rare old-school components for status, or just because of aesthetics, makes them enjoy their systems.
These days high cost is not usually required just to get high SQ and the functionality you want.
With computer chip-based components, cramming thousands of functions into one mass-produced box does not cost more than a more specialized one with very limited functionality.
With an analog product engineering very high SQ for just a few functions can cost a hundred times more, and will not appeal to the mass market.
So NO you do not "need" a "proper" pre-amp for SQ
unless you actually NEED one of the functions I outlined above, that is missing from your system.
Many wealthy people WANT to show off rare old-school components for status, or just because of aesthetics, makes them enjoy their systems.
These days high cost is not usually required just to get high SQ and the functionality you want.
See below.
I was addressing the **concept** of pre-amp, within that context.
Clarifying functionalities that may require one, rather than subscribing to the idea that "a pre-amp" is just a given object.
Preamps are solved in terms of audio performance, and have been for quite a long time, it seems to me.
But they are not solved in terms of what features should be provided. Preamps do a few basic kinds of things:
1. Provide line-level amplification. Lots of folks want to plug their 1-2V source device directly into an amp, but some amps enjoy better performance through lower gain, and are expecting voltage signals greater than the 2V CD-player standard. Driving them to full power will require some upstream line-level amplification.
2. Connect inputs and outputs. The list of inputs has changed a lot over the years, so this has been a moving target. This varies all over the map--many only want to stream, and some of us have half a dozen source devices or more to switch between in various ways. Most current preamps lack the input/output control I require for my fleet of vintage audio stuff, for example.
3. Provide tone management to correct for flawed sources. This is what tone controls were for, separately from room-correction equalization. But the preamp has to provide connections for the latter, too. Listening level control is part of this--most of my amps don't have attenuation.
4. Provide balance control for stereo systems, or level controls for all the channels of a multi-channel system.
5. Provide phono amplification and RIAA filtering, if one wants to play vinyl. It's probably been several decades since phono preamps were provided in "control preamplifiers", but I use vintage stuff. Those can, of course, be separate.
6. Provide source signals in some cases, though that was not the traditional use of a preamp (vis a vis a receiver). In the present context, that usually means some kind of streaming software, though this can certainly also be a separate device. I rather prefer keeping software-based technology separated from expensive hardware stuff, simply because I don't want to have to replace expensive hardware simply because software standards changed (and they change ever 15 minutes, it seems). I use a cheap laptop to do all the streaming stuff (and many use a RPI-based solution, too), and keep that stuff separate from hardware that has a lot of expensive analog audio stuff in it.
I'm a traditionalist in that I want to fulfill most or all of those requirements and still provide good performance. I daresay the nearly half-century-old Holman preamp I'm using right now would present a listening experience that gives little or nothing up to the very latest on the market, if what most people are able to hear and distinguish blindly is the standard. So, in that sense, it's a solved problem. But it does not have anything resembling digital inputs
Rick "uses cases and requirements" Denney
But they are not solved in terms of what features should be provided. Preamps do a few basic kinds of things:
1. Provide line-level amplification. Lots of folks want to plug their 1-2V source device directly into an amp, but some amps enjoy better performance through lower gain, and are expecting voltage signals greater than the 2V CD-player standard. Driving them to full power will require some upstream line-level amplification.
2. Connect inputs and outputs. The list of inputs has changed a lot over the years, so this has been a moving target. This varies all over the map--many only want to stream, and some of us have half a dozen source devices or more to switch between in various ways. Most current preamps lack the input/output control I require for my fleet of vintage audio stuff, for example.
3. Provide tone management to correct for flawed sources. This is what tone controls were for, separately from room-correction equalization. But the preamp has to provide connections for the latter, too. Listening level control is part of this--most of my amps don't have attenuation.
4. Provide balance control for stereo systems, or level controls for all the channels of a multi-channel system.
5. Provide phono amplification and RIAA filtering, if one wants to play vinyl. It's probably been several decades since phono preamps were provided in "control preamplifiers", but I use vintage stuff. Those can, of course, be separate.
6. Provide source signals in some cases, though that was not the traditional use of a preamp (vis a vis a receiver). In the present context, that usually means some kind of streaming software, though this can certainly also be a separate device. I rather prefer keeping software-based technology separated from expensive hardware stuff, simply because I don't want to have to replace expensive hardware simply because software standards changed (and they change ever 15 minutes, it seems). I use a cheap laptop to do all the streaming stuff (and many use a RPI-based solution, too), and keep that stuff separate from hardware that has a lot of expensive analog audio stuff in it.
I'm a traditionalist in that I want to fulfill most or all of those requirements and still provide good performance. I daresay the nearly half-century-old Holman preamp I'm using right now would present a listening experience that gives little or nothing up to the very latest on the market, if what most people are able to hear and distinguish blindly is the standard. So, in that sense, it's a solved problem. But it does not have anything resembling digital inputs
Rick "uses cases and requirements" Denney
Now I understand better where you are coming from. So are you saying that, aside from exotics like tape loop and probably phono pre-amp, AVRs like Denon 3800 will give you all you need - especially if loaded with full Dirac package?
For me personally? I stated from the outset that I use no AV related gear, nor any DSP much less Dirac, totally above my paygrade
Agreed for the most part it is a solved problem. With exception that IMO pre-amps without any meaningful room correction system (despite all other wonderful features) deserve a special designation - waiting for major issues to be solved.
They don't seem to realise every single part and detail in their music has been digitally "volume controlled" approximately five thousand times during production. It's the same as with opamps: the music has run through dozens of cheap ones, but for playback it suddenly must be luxurious discrete ones.
My preamps all have processor loops. It's up to me to install and configure a processor to provide room correction.
Which I have done.
The last thing I want is some active processing that is software-dependent finding a way to obsolete the hardware of a good preamp.
Rick "used REW and a Yamaha YDP2006 digital parametric equalizer" Denney
Great. So you think you did a good job setting your room correction. BTW did you have a chance to compare in your room other available options?
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