Is the preamp solved?

[Arc78]

I have quite a few speakers and many many power amps here and there after years of hifi interest but only one NAD preamp.
Preamps are ridiculous expensive and extreme hard to find second hand. I wonder why. Power amp are every where.
At the same time streamers are also difficult to find to a normal price and that are easy to control. Cellphones are crazy bad since they always have limitations of sound sources control. Like why would I not like to stream music to the stereo if some one calls me etc etc idiotic limitation in music handling sources and mixing. I can’t control come individual to different sources it’s just a mess.

I wish to have a few stereos here and there.
The wiim ultra acts as both streamer and presmp one of very few…I read the review here
they cost much more now than a year ago almost 500$ but are they worth it?
Are they as good as a 500$ Rotel or NAD preamp? How big are the difference in sound quality and the fact that the steamer are in the same box?
Are the preamp solved like the dac or how does it work? Would be grate with Dirac but I guess it be in the future

 

[jcarys]

The great thing about a well built streamer is that you no longer need a preamp (unless you are running some very unusual amplifier). Yes, the preamp output of the Wiim Ultra is as good or better than Rotel or NAD. Since most of the electronics are digital, you can stuff as much as you want in a smallish box, and then go straight to your external amp or active speakers. Some folks here are still having issues with digital volume control, but they are slowing waking up to the 21st century. No opinion on Dirac since I've never used it, but for a simple setup, any room correction is an added benefit.

 

[DVDdoug]

Yes, preamps are "solved". It's just a control center (unless it has a phono preamp) and is more-often attenuating than amplifying. A receiver gives you the most for your money, including a preamp, power amp, and tuner. Many receivers (and all AVRs) have digital inputs.

 

[Joe Smith]

Mostly still of value if you are using an amp that does not have volume control, or you don't want to rely on digital source volume control. I have a hand-built single RCA in-out passive preamp that is sometimes of value, the new mini Fosi P4 3-RCA preamp (a great value), Schiit Saga 2 preamp (4-RCA, 64-stepped resistor ladder volume control, wonderful) and older Nikko and NAD classic preamps, which come in handy for tape monitoring needs etc.

At under $100, the Fosi P4 preamp is an especially nice value.

 

[Arc78]

The great thing about a well built streamer is that you no longer need a preamp (unless you are running some very unusual amplifier). Yes, the preamp output of the Wiim Ultra is as good or better than Rotel or NAD. Since most of the electronics are digital, you can stuff as much as you want in a smallish box, and then go straight to your external amp or active speakers. Some folks here are still having issues with digital volume control, but they are slowing waking up to the 21st century. No opinion on Dirac since I've never used it, but for a simple setup, any room correction is an added benefit.

Thanks for reply I have not jet grasped the difference between analog and digital volume control and why it matters please fill me in.

 

[Arc78]

Mostly still of value if you are using an amp that does not have volume control, or you don't want to rely on digital source volume control. I have a hand-built single RCA in-out passive preamp that is sometimes of value, the new mini Fosi P4 3-RCA preamp (a great value), Schiit Saga 2 preamp (4-RCA, 64-stepped resistor ladder volume control, wonderful) and older Nikko and NAD classic preamps, which come in handy for tape monitoring needs etc.

At under $100, the Fosi P4 preamp is an especially nice value.

Yes Fosi P4 looked incredible for its prices looks unbelievable wonder why other preamps cost like 1000$ and also second hand value are extreme. Building with this I just need to find what's the best streamers. I have so many power amps really nice once will be fun to set them up.

 

[Daverz]

Thanks for reply I have not jet grasped the difference between analog and digital volume control and why it matters please fill me in.

The self-noise of the an analog volume control is attenuated along with the signal, preserving the SINAD of that device. But system SINAD is still limited by everything that comes after that: the amp, speakers and room.

For a digital volume control, the signal is attenuated mathematically, but the self-noise from the D/A stage stays constant. However, this noise is always inaudible anyway (assuming a sane choice of DAC), and digital volume controls don't have the flaws of analog controls like poor channel tracking at low volumes.

 

[Joe Smith]

Yes Fosi P4 looked incredible for its prices looks unbelievable wonder why other preamps cost like 1000$ and also second hand value are extreme. Building with this I just need to find what's the best streamers. I have so many power amps really nice once will be fun to set them up.

P4 is a value champ, yes. If you don’t need gain, a simple passive preamp can also do the trick. Some decent ones under $109 with multiple RCA inputs. Or, they’re easy to make too.

 

[Rickysa]

Timely question as I'm in the middle of an amp build and simply need a pretty box with a volume knob and selector switches to stick in front of it and be as invisible (signal-wise) as possible.

 

[Chrispy]

I've thought so for about 30 years now, still have a coupla those for 2ch gear.

 

[Joe Smith]

Timely question as I'm in the middle of an amp build and simply need a pretty box with a volume knob and selector switches to stick in front of it and be as invisible (signal-wise) as possible.

You might also want to check out the Schiit Saga 2 preamp. 4 RCA inputs, RCA and balanced out, 3 gain levels including passive, 64-step relay attenuator with perfect channel matching, remote control, black finish. It uses an outbound custom wall-wart box but given all the other goodness, I can live with that. About $350.

It's more expensive than the P4, but the 64-step attenuator is a very nice thing for volume control.

 

[Arc78]

The self-noise of the an analog volume control is attenuated along with the signal, preserving the SINAD of that device. But system SINAD is still limited by everything that comes after that: the amp, speakers and room.

For a digital volume control, the signal is attenuated mathematically, but the self-noise from the D/A stage stays constant. However, this noise is always inaudible anyway (assuming a sane choice of DAC), and digital volume controls don't have the flaws of analog controls like poor channel tracking at low volumes.

The self-noise of the an analog volume control is attenuated along with the signal, preserving the SINAD of that device. But system SINAD is still limited by everything that comes after that: the amp, speakers and room.

For a digital volume control, the signal is attenuated mathematically, but the self-noise from the D/A stage stays constant. However, this noise is always inaudible anyway (assuming a sane choice of DAC), and digital volume controls don't have the flaws of analog controls like poor channel tracking at low volumes.

Thanks for helping me understand never focused on this part of the HIFI-world but where are the main in real life benefits of the analog volume control?

​

 

[Arc78]

You might also want to check out the Schiit Saga 2 preamp. 4 RCA inputs, RCA and balanced out, 3 gain levels including passive, 64-step relay attenuator with perfect channel matching, remote control, black finish. It uses an outbound custom wall-wart box but given all the other goodness, I can live with that. About $350.

It's more expensive than the P4, but the 64-step attenuator is a very nice thing for volume control.

I think $350 sounds ok for a fine device that mesures well but I have still trouble to understand how it can be a market to pay 400-900$+ for 10-20 years old preamps on ebay and similar sites, when an Wiim ultra costs about same or less and are completely digital with quite good tested mesurements and with modern streaming and like the quite good Fosi P4 that measure almost "perfect" what am I missing?
The tube amps I can understand since a lot of people enjoy that warmth, tube-coloured sound ( I guess if that is what you are used to and like, it just sounds wrong without it) I might even want to test a better tube preamp with my CM10S2 speakers which is a bit harsh at higher volume, to hear the results... havent heard a real one since I was a kid

But still I fail to see what I am missing here.
I can see that even to day it also sells many new preamps well beyond 1000$ some even without streamers.
With streamer even more than 2000$ price tag for some devices like NAD C658, NAD M66 much more and Linn Majik with a staggering 3800$.
I can´t get it. What are the secrets of the preamp. The difference of power amp I understand and tested, that can be a gigantic difference if the power amp is to small to maintain power and control when needed the most. With the preamp how much better can it sound than a device like the Fosi Audio ZD3 DAC with a digital connected streamer... please fill me in.

 

[Daverz]

Thanks for helping me understand never focused on this part of the HIFI-world but where are the main in real life benefits of the analog volume control?

​

Hopefully a nice volume knob. I'm not joking, take a look at some of the threads where people are looking for a nice knob to control their volume digitally. I control my volume with my phone, which is not optimal.

 

[Arc78]

Hopefully a nice volume knob. I'm not joking, take a look at some of the threads where people are looking for a nice knob to control their volume digitally. I control my volume with my phone, which is not optimal.

Ok so the feeling in the knob is what's at stake here?

 

[Daverz]

Ok so the feeling in the knob is what's at stake here?

Feeling of the knob, responsiveness, and sanity (e.g. not going to max volume because you fat fingered it in a web/phone UI).

That said, this is more of an issue for DIY multichannel systems. If you're just doing stereo then there are plenty of inexpensive stereo DACs with a good digital volume control knob and an infrared remote.

 

[Arc78]

Feeling of the knob, responsiveness, and sanity (e.g. not going to max volume because you fat fingered it in a web/phone UI).

That said, this is more of an issue for DIY multichannel systems. If you're just doing stereo then there are plenty of inexpensive stereo DACs with a good digital volume control knob and an infrared remote.

Yes I have a Denon X4800 with NAD-M25 (not yet finished installation) for multichannel not so much time in living room Now I am looking for audio for gym, kitchen, storage building with repair desk

 

[Joe Smith]

I think $350 sounds ok for a fine device that mesures well but I have still trouble to understand how it can be a market to pay 400-900$+ for 10-20 years old preamps on ebay and similar sites, when an Wiim ultra costs about same or less and are completely digital with quite good tested mesurements and with modern streaming and like the quite good Fosi P4 that measure almost "perfect" what am I missing?
The tube amps I can understand since a lot of people enjoy that warmth, tube-coloured sound ( I guess if that is what you are used to and like, it just sounds wrong without it) I might even want to test a better tube preamp with my CM10S2 speakers which is a bit harsh at higher volume, to hear the results... havent heard a real one since I was a kid

But still I fail to see what I am missing here.
I can see that even to day it also sells many new preamps well beyond 1000$ some even without streamers.
With streamer even more than 2000$ price tag for some devices like NAD C658, NAD M66 much more and Linn Majik with a staggering 3800$.
I can´t get it. What are the secrets of the preamp. The difference of power amp I understand and tested, that can be a gigantic difference if the power amp is to small to maintain power and control when needed the most. With the preamp how much better can it sound than a device like the Fosi Audio ZD3 DAC with a digital connected streamer... please fill me in.

To some extent, it's that those legacy preamps were engineering feats of their day, have held up over time component-wise fairly well, and people still like the marquee value of owning one. A full preamp has some additional features, a lot related to taping/dubbing, which are nice if you need that but extraneous if you don't.

For instance, I don't need an Apt Holman preamp. Have I always deeply wanted one? I do. Still do.

 

[JoeHTGuy]

There are several reasons for a preamp. The reasons are mainly usage related. If you have a single digital source and you favor the newer DACs that are preferred here, then there is most likely no reason for one. Examples of reasons:

• The primary one is if you have any analog sources. Some DACs nowadays have analog inputs, but almost none have fully balanced inputs. Also, many folks want to avoid any ADC then DAC for their analog sources.
• It doesn’t handcuff you into DACs that have preamps.
• If you have a home theater, you can get a preamp that has a home theater bypass and separate your stereo setup from HT.
• You have an older DAC you like and want to keep.
• You prefer tubes to color the sound to your liking…. although there are some tube DACs.

I personally have one for several of the reasons above. The good news is that they are virtually timeless. Once you have one, they will most likely never be obsolete.

 

[TehMowat]

I think $350 sounds ok for a fine device that mesures well but I have still trouble to understand how it can be a market to pay 400-900$+ for 10-20 years old preamps on ebay and similar sites, when an Wiim ultra costs about same or less and are completely digital with quite good tested mesurements and with modern streaming and like the quite good Fosi P4 that measure almost "perfect" what am I missing?
The tube amps I can understand since a lot of people enjoy that warmth, tube-coloured sound ( I guess if that is what you are used to and like, it just sounds wrong without it) I might even want to test a better tube preamp with my CM10S2 speakers which is a bit harsh at higher volume, to hear the results... havent heard a real one since I was a kid

But still I fail to see what I am missing here.
I can see that even to day it also sells many new preamps well beyond 1000$ some even without streamers.
With streamer even more than 2000$ price tag for some devices like NAD C658, NAD M66 much more and Linn Majik with a staggering 3800$.
I can´t get it. What are the secrets of the preamp. The difference of power amp I understand and tested, that can be a gigantic difference if the power amp is to small to maintain power and control when needed the most. With the preamp how much better can it sound than a device like the Fosi Audio ZD3 DAC with a digital connected streamer... please fill me in.

Features man, added features adds costs. Expensive pre-amps have multiple types of inputs, so mixing analog and digital adds complexity, adding a network card adds cost, then adding the ability to stream or play local content adds programming, add in bluetooth, that's more hardware and programming. Oh, you want room corrections? The manufacturer has to pay licensing fees to Dirac or whatever, or develop their own in house, more $$. But sure, this should all cost $100, just like the Fosi F4, which literally has 3 analog inputs, volume, and bass and treble controls. That's pretty much it on the Fosi. As a pre-amp, the Wiim is probably ok, but I doubt it is as good as a proper pre-amp.