Is the LXmini by Siegfried Linkwitz the answer for home audio?

[somebodyelse]

Another question. - Im really wondering of the purpose of the 3 inch pipe ? Is it doing anything to the sound ? The backward radiation from the fullrange driver should show no big difference with or without the pipe ? Or are there some psychoacoustics involved in this ?

From https://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Design.htm:

The rear radiation from the dipole must be attenuated or scattered and diffused in order to minimize the influence of a large reflecting surface behind the dipole radiator. The cylindrical body behind the dipole driver serves that purpose as its dimensions are in the fractional wavelength range of the frequencies concerned. There is a small gap between the magnet and the inside of the pipe. The rear is open and stuffed with absorbent material for very high frequency attenuation. The resulting polar response in the horizontal plane is shown below. The response in the vertical plane should be similar, because of closeness of the acoustically small sources. Thus a listener's ears should be on the dipole axis. Standing upright close to the speakers definitely darkens the timbre.

 

[ctrl]

Is there anything unusual and genius in this dipolar dispersion between 1-5 kHz ,? - the backward radiated sound is out of phase compared to the front sound from the 3 inch driver , this should (?) take away some of the unwanted room-reflections directly from the side of each speaker ?

It's hard to say, the loudspeaker doesn't show perfect dipolar radiation in any case. Vertically, there are additional asymmetrical radiation lobes. Perhaps the imperfection also contributes to the huge sound stage that the speaker is said to produce.

After Erin's Klippel measurements (and youtube review) of the LXmini were published, I tried to work out a few more details and the difference of SL initial measurements and the set build by Erin.

 

[Tangband]

It's hard to say, the loudspeaker doesn't show perfect dipolar radiation in any case. Vertically, there are additional asymmetrical radiation lobes. Perhaps the imperfection also contributes to the huge sound stage that the speaker is said to produce.

After Erin's Klippel measurements (and youtube review) of the LXmini were published, I tried to work out a few more details and the difference of SL initial measurements and the set build by Erin.

Very interesting !

Im wondering… Maybe this loudspeaker sounds much better than it measures because of the non existance baffle ?
Static signals is one thing when measuring, but from my recording sessions with microphones I have learn that early reflections from about 1-5 ms distance, meaning everything from 34 cm to 1,7 meters in reflections from the direct sound muddles the perceived sound quality . This would also happen If the baffle on a loudspeaker are very wide - or if using inwall speakers.
Do you think there is something in this ?

 

[fpitas]

These have a lot of fans, and are undoubtably enjoyable speakers. But they suffer from the problem any unusual design does; namely recordings are neither mixed nor mastered using this kind of speaker. If your goal is to add your own spaciousness etc, well fine.

 

[Tangband]

These have a lot of fans, and are undoubtably enjoyable speakers. But they suffer from the problem any unusual design does; namely recordings are neither mixed nor mastered using this kind of speaker. If your goal is to add your own spaciousness etc, well fine.

You got a point there. Its also a unique, fascinating design that makes you wanna build something similar.

 

[fpitas]

You got a point there. Its also a unique, fascinating design that make you wanna build something similar.

i have no problem with that. It's a hobby, after all. But you do put yourself in with SET aficionados etc, in that you're adding your own secret sauce to the mix.

 

[Thomas_A]

These have a lot of fans, and are undoubtably enjoyable speakers. But they suffer from the problem any unusual design does; namely recordings are neither mixed nor mastered using this kind of speaker. If your goal is to add your own spaciousness etc, well fine.

It might be a goal to have the illusion of a music event rather than what was heard in the studio.

 

[Tangband]

It might be a goal to have the illusion of a music event rather than what was heard in the studio.

this can also be true - especially for purist recordings with just 2 microphones and minimal or none eq in the mixing stage .
With 2 channel playback and recordings with two microphones there is no ” original” in form of a specific studio monitor sound . Theres only a recorded illusion of the real musicevent .

 

[Thomas_A]

this can also be true - especially for purist recordings with just 2 microphones and minimal or none eq in the mixing stage .
With 2 channel playback and recordings with two microphones there is no ” original” in form of a specific studio monitor sound . Theres only a recorded illusion of the real musicevent .

You could even do the extreme comparison. Use accurate headphones and compare with two accurate speakers. Which one comes closest to the illusion of the ”music event”?

 

[ctrl]

Im wondering… Maybe this loudspeaker sounds much better than it measures because of the non existance baffle ?
Static signals is one thing when measuring, but from my recording sessions with microphones I have learn that early reflections from about 1-5 ms distance, meaning everything from 34 cm to 1,7 meters in reflections from the direct sound muddles the perceived sound quality . This would also happen If the baffle are very wide - or if using inwall speakers.

I'm always a little skeptical about statements like that. They also say that small speakers, as they are fashionable right now, can't sound "right" because of the too small baffle.
In-wall speakers show almost no edge diffraction (since there is an "infinite baffle" for a large frequency range), so they should actually sound particularly good or not?

The LXmini has no usual baffle, but reflective surfaces (woofer, broadband driver mount) and the entire broadband driver edge as a secondary sound source. The sound radiated to the rear also arrives directly with a time delay and lowered SPL at the listening position (i.e. "bad early reflections") and indirectly via reflections.

The following sounds a bit like a pedantic asshole, but I hope the difference in my reasoning becomes clear.
Therefore, for me personally, the simplest explanation for the sound is the radiation pattern of the speaker. This is of course a result of the "unusual baffle" (almost none), but another speaker (for example with a normal baffle, a small horn and a backward radiating tweeter) that shows a comparable radiation should have very similar sound characteristics.
In a nutshell: It's the radiation pattern, not the baffle

 

[Thomas_A]

One should try the LXmini with a damping panel behind to explore if the ”soundstage effect” remains or not. Speculating here but it might be so that delayed reflections from speaker wall confuse our brains with respect to distance judgement to the speaker and adds an artificial space component. Perhaps the 1-5 kHz range is particularly efficient?

There are other speakers for that like the older series Carlsson/Sonab with tweeters partly directed to the wall. They also have a reputation to disappear and with an addition of ”space.” (The later series were a bit different and used very close wall drivers with damping panels. )

 

[Tangband]

One should try the LXmini with a damping panel behind to explore if the ”soundstage effect” remains or not. Speculating here but it might be so that delayed reflections from speaker wall confuse our brains with respect to distance judgement to the speaker and adds an artificial space component. Perhaps the 1-5 kHz range is particularly efficient?

There are other speakers for that like the older series Carlsson/Sonab with tweeters partly directed to the wall. They also have a reputation to disappear and with an addition of ”space.” (The later series were a bit different and used very close wall drivers with damping panels. )

Im also curious If the sound will be perceived as the same without the 3 inch tube behind the 4 inch driver.
There are surely some diffused back energy coming from the tubeedges right behind the 4 inch driver , as some people already have pointed out, and this is probably the purpose , but I really wonder If its audible at all ? The 4 inch drivers magnet on the rear will, by its own existance make a lot of diffusion.

 

[Tangband]

I'm always a little skeptical about statements like that. They also say that small speakers, as they are fashionable right now, can't sound "right" because of the too small baffle.
In-wall speakers show almost no edge diffraction (since there is an "infinite baffle" for a large frequency range), so they should actually sound particularly good or not?

The LXmini has no usual baffle, but reflective surfaces (woofer, broadband driver mount) and the entire broadband driver edge as a secondary sound source. The sound radiated to the rear also arrives directly with a time delay and lowered SPL at the listening position (i.e. "bad early reflections") and indirectly via reflections.

The following sounds a bit like a pedantic asshole, but I hope the difference in my reasoning becomes clear.
Therefore, for me personally, the simplest explanation for the sound is the radiation pattern of the speaker. This is of course a result of the "unusual baffle" (almost none), but another speaker (for example with a normal baffle, a small horn and a backward radiating tweeter) that shows a comparable radiation should have very similar sound characteristics.
In a nutshell: It's the radiation pattern, not the baffle

I dont like the sound from inwall speakers, they sound very ”flat” to me, and the only way for me to make them sound good, was do put damping material, 3 cm thick , around each speaker, in a circle about 100 cm wide . Not very estetical. The very early reflections from the wall is very bad for the sound , especially coming from the higher frequencies.

So - this , and my recording sessions with microphones have made me suspect that the nonexistance of the baffle are the main reason for this ”non loudspeaker” sounding lxmini to sound good, but I might be wrong, and I probably have to try the concept to be really sure.

 

[abdo123]

I dont like the sound from inwall speakers, they sound very ”flat” to me, and the only way for me to make them sound good, was do put damping material, 3 cm thick , around each speaker, in a circle about 100 cm wide . Not very estetical. The very early reflections from the wall is very bad for the sound , especially coming from the higher frequencies.

So - this , and my recording sessions with microphones have made me suspect that the nonexistance of the baffle are the main reason for this ”non loudspeaker” sounding lxmini to sound good, but I might be wrong, and I probably have to try the concept to be really sure.

Did you mean on-wall?

 

[Tangband]

Did you mean on-wall?

Both in and onwall

 

[abdo123]

Both in and onwall

in walls don't have early reflections from the walls they're installed in.

 

[Tangband]

in walls don't have early reflections from the walls they're installed in.

This is a myth - theres always gonna be some early reflections on the wall, even from in-wall speakers, like If you throw a rock into the water and theres gonna be some waves. This sound defect can be fixed with a lot of damping material on the wall.

Further - the flawed stereosystem really needs som late reflections from walls so for the best result freestanding speakers is the way to go - my experience.

 

[abdo123]

This is a myth - theres always gonna be some early reflections on the wall, even from in-wall speakers, like If you throw a rock into the water and theres gonna be some waves. This sound defect can be fixed with a lot of damping material on the wall.

Further - the flawed stereosystem really needs som late reflections from walls so for the best result freestanding speakers is the way to go - my experience.

You’re not making any sense.

 

[ctrl]

I dont like the sound from inwall speakers, they sound very ”flat” to me, and the only way for me to make them sound good, was do put damping material, 3 cm thick , around each speaker, in a circle about 100 cm wide .

Since 3cm of absorption material always reflects a part of the incoming sound waves depending on the frequency, you have created additional secondary sound sources, which in turn have caused "early reflections". So, it seems that "early reflections" are not bad in every case.

 

[Tangband]

Since 3cm of absorption material always reflects a part of the incoming sound waves depending on the frequency, you have created additional secondary sound sources, which in turn have caused "early reflections". So, it seems that "early reflections" are not bad in every case.

Yes agree. The question is how. The stereo system is a flawed system, this fact alone makes it open for manipulations to get the illusion greater.
This is apparently what Linkwitz have done, maybe also thrown in some additional ”mystery” ingrediences.

Linkwitz vent from the orion ( wide baffle ) to the lx521 with almost no baffle to talk about - Im sure Linkwitz didnt like the reflected sound from baffles, and this was the conclusion he made later in his life.
The lx521 and lx Sirius on the pictures: