Is the Hi-Fi industry inherently not adapted to the 21st century (serious discussion)?

[egellings]

I live too far from any high end audio store. I'd have to either take vacation days, rent a hotel, and then go audition the equipment, or else I'd need to have it shipped to me so that I can hear it in my own setting on my own equipment. I'd take the 2nd option.

 

[eas]

This is much more of a concern to me as well, I was under the impression that even though it's tough to make money more music then ever before was getting made, but the following link shows that since 2015 the number of albums, and the number of debut albums are both declining quickly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Albums_by_year

What is this actually measuring?

Are these pages/records automatically generated from some comprehensive source, or are they created by dedicated volunteers. If it's the latter, then the apparent decline may instead reflect the variable amount of time it takes for things to be cataloged.

And then there is the question of how this relates to the ability of new artists to make a living.

These days budding artists debut stuff on their social media. They sell downloads on Bandcamp, drum up subscribers for their Patreon, book gigs when they can, promote them every which way and hawk any merch they have. Oh, and they rue their piddling streaming royalties. Most of them are probably scraping by, some may be making a middle-class living without a desk job, a few are headed to bigger and better things. How are they counted in the Wikipedia tallies?

How different is today from the "good old days?" (pre y2k, probably). Back then people may have scraped by and busted their ass until they could get a record contract with a modest advance. How many of them ended up finding other ways to make a living? Most, probably. What was the average hourly or annual wage during the high-point of their short music careers?

I think about this stuff, but I don't have answers.

 

[Wes]

The "good old days" were when musicians played live in the Duke's castle if they were lucky. Many were itinerant and the band camped in between "gigs."

 

[MaxBuck]

I live too far from any high end audio store. I'd have to either take vacation days, rent a hotel, and then go audition the equipment, or else I'd need to have it shipped to me so that I can hear it in my own setting on my own equipment. I'd take the 2nd option.

From my perspective, listening tests are critical when selecting transducers (phono cartridges, coupled with phono stage preamp, and speakers / headphones). Otherwise select on the basis of objective measurements. That simplifies the process.

That said, speaker selection becomes limited for many to whatever selection is carried by Best Buy. At least their product lines include a range of design philosophies (KEF, B&W, Definitive, Martin Logan, sometimes ELAC). Not ideal, but also not catastrophic.

EDIT: Admittedly USA-centric post.

 

[escksu]

Hi there, i was wondering in the light of last years' events( Covid, chip shortages, etc), that this whole 18months exacerbated the Hi-Fi's industry shortcomings. i think this may end up yet again into a hi-fi Subjective/Objective reviewer thread( but hope not). What i'm saying is that for many years hi-fi was a physical "get there and listen to it" product buying experience. Expensive? yes, but over the years there have been plenty of good accessible products. one can't say this is an "Old white male" expensive hobby. not anymore.

I believe what exacerbated the shortcomings of this industry was the fact that for around 1 year almost no one could go and listen. We had to stay under lock-downs (UK here was REALLY LOONG), and rely on youtubers and other online outlets for our entertainment and benefit of watching someone who has had the opportunity to review a product that many of us may have been interested in possibly buying. Now, do these guys convey the information we so need, in order to warrant an online order without listening to the product? Do they have a certain responsibility to us the customers? I think not. I wouldn't buy on Audiophiliac's opinion on stuff without looking for some as objective as possible measurements ( at least believable). But, then , this industry was not build to support this promotional model? am i right? . will this promotional model weed out the bad guys in a natural way? Are we victims of a CN product super pushy marketing strategy (talking about DACs out of everywhere...)? Why are some old, well established brands not in this?

So, are we missing a reliable reviewing model that actually may work for this industry? Is the industry inherently not adaptable to the online model? I know there are more important things happening in the world but this is an audiophile forum right? Please discuss.

I would say its less about the industry and more on factors such as cost of the product, personal preferences and finite budget. If a person earn $1000 a month, a $1000 amp/speaker would seem extremely expensive. IF he we to buy one, I doubt he will just read specs and review and buy online. He may even audition it several times before deciding. In contrast, if a person earns $20,000 a month, then he probably will not feel that $1000 gear is expensive. It seems good by specs and reviews and just order it online. IT saves him time and effort too, does not need to go down to the store to buy.

For audio, its a little more complicated because many of the parameters are subjective and not measurable. Its not like computer products where there is a fixed set of parameters like performance, power consumption etc.... But then, even processors are getting alot more complicated and harder to benchmark today, esp, when power consumption and cooling becomes a conern.

Of course, having said that, there are many today who actually goes window shopping and test out stuffs at stores but buy online. Although they purchase online, its not the same because they already tested it themselves and know what they want. Its not a "blind" purchase.

 

[RayDunzl]

I want to audition in my own listening room which is familiar to me and affords me adequate time to compare.

I don't get out much, but what other industries give that sort of option before the product purchase?

 

[MaxBuck]

I don't get out much, but what other industries give that sort of option before the product purchase?

Automobile.

My wife drove her new E450 home to Palm Desert from Santa Monica over the weekend to check out the handling and how it fit in the garage.

A bit higher price point, but still. Not a request I'd make for cheap bookshelves, but not unreasonable before shelling out the coin for, say, Salon 2s.

 

[Angsty]

As someone who's never bought a HiFi product after listening, I don't see that the current situation (or that pertaining over the past 18 months) is anything of concern. I've even bought cars without a test drive, as long as the seats are confortable for a few minutes, a half-hour test drive isn't going to tell me anything different. Shoes that I've bought after trying them on, they seem fine at first, but after walking two or three miles, only then will I know if I've made a mistake.

Buying on the specs, if available verified or from a trusted source or from a manufacturer with a good reputation, together with good visuals is all I need.

There's very little one can try sufficiently thoroughly to be sure they work satisfactorily over a long period. All one can hope for is that they work OK, and one gets used to their foibles, or if that's not possible, take the loss down to experience or sell them on for a modest loss.

S.

Now that you mention it, I have almost never purchased a component after listening either. The only exception was a pair of Thiel speakers that I purchased off Audiogon many ago. I had to travel to another state to buy them and arrange for shipping back, so that was a big deal at the time.

 

[Wes]

I don't get out much, but what other industries give that sort of option before the product purchase?

anything sold by Amazon, cars

 

[goat76]

I hadn't considered that. I was thinking of the collapse of the hardware end of the industry. But I see your point. If there is no compensation for emerging artists, then there is no reason for them to enter The Industry.

We may need a completely different business model to prevent the collapse of the music industry from BOTH ends. Jim

Why do you have concerns about the business model of the music industry? Do you care who will be the next Ed Sheeran, are you looking forward to all the upcoming copycats of Billie Eilish, will we ever get a new Prince?

The reason for any artist should be the art itself, not if and how they will make money out of their music. Historically most artists have never made much money out of selling records, the live gigs are where the most money comes from. If they "make it", people will flood to their live performances all around the world. The biggest concern for the artists is now the virus pandemic.

The "business model" is more of a tool made by people who want to make money out of someone else's art, but this middle-hand is not needed anymore. The artist can fund their own recordings, they can easily distribute the music to every corner of the world thanks to the digital music formats, through their own websites or sites like Bandcamp who only take 12-15% of the revenue.
The best part for the artist nowadays is that the whole world is a potential market for live gigs thanks to the easy access of the music. Even in the remote areas of the world where the old distribution networks never reached (because of the risk of not selling the physical media).

Music will never die, music will just flourish when the industry loses its grip. The direct link between artists and listeners is the best thing that is happening to the art form of music right now.

 

[Soniclife]

What is this actually measuring?

Are these pages/records automatically generated from some comprehensive source, or are they created by dedicated volunteers. If it's the latter, then the apparent decline may instead reflect the variable amount of time it takes for things to be cataloged.

Good question, I picked a random obscure album I like, it was missing, so I think it's auto generated from albums that have wiki pages with release dates, so if there is no wiki page, it's not counted. So maybe my original feeling that more new music is made these days then ever before is right, after all you only need a laptop and a USB mic to make an album these days, and I'm not aware of real barriers existing to getting it onto streaming services.

The reason for any artist should be the art itself, not if and how they will make money out of their music. Historically most artists have never made much money out of selling records, the live gigs are where the most money comes from. If they "make it", people will flood to their live performances all around the world.

I largely agree, good art will find a way, music seems to be a fundamental part of being human, it existed before there was a music industry, it's not going away, but I do like the idea that there are professional musicians who can earn a living making music, but it's not at all clear in my head how much that should be, only that when money is spent on music the vast majority should go to the artists.

 

[sergeauckland]

Music will never die, music will just flourish when the industry loses its grip. The direct link between artists and listeners is the best thing that is happening to the art form of music right now.

Completely agree. Provided that artists can survive the transition, they will have more control over their art than before. It's turning art into industry that I feel has harmed music and musicians. Before recordings, musicians made a living by playing in front of an audience, coupled with patronage. Composers likewise. Once recordings became the main method of listening to music, a musician's success was dependent on the industry that recorded them, pressed the records, distributed the records, promoted the records and the artists. All pretty much outside the artists' control, in some case totally so depending on the contracts they had. Even live concert performances were heavily dependent on promoters, although perhaps not to the extent of the record companies.

Musicians now have the best opportunity to take back control of their art, and as such, their income. I do wonder, though, how long it'll take for live music to get back to where it was two years ago. Hopefully not long.

S.

 

[David Harper]

The young guys who work at my local Best Buy, when asked to let you audition a pair of speakers, want to use the MP3 files on their phone as the source. This tells you that audiophile concerns don't exist for them. The speakers were Martin Logan ESL. When I tried to explain to him that I would prefer a higher quality source, he was genuinely puzzled. Apparently it had never occurred to him that the 128kbs files on his phone had any effect on sound quality. Audiophiles are a rapidly disappearing curiosity, I'm afraid. My daughters find it silly that I have an OPPO CDP. I just bought a new computer and it doesn't have a CD tray in it at all. The new car I bought four years ago has a USB port. No CDP. Not that it's any big loss I guess.
Physical mediums are a thing of the past. I just bought a firestick (cut my cable) and my music listening ever since has been all streaming. I still use a Yammy AVR as the central control point of the system mostly for it's various and versatile audio/video functionality. But my other stuff (cdp, tt, pre amp, power amp) have become mostly relics of the past. But they sure look cool sitting there in the entertainment system.

 

[Wes]

Have we transitioned this thread to the music industry?

The OP mentioned the HiFi industry...

I think only the retail brick & mortar end of things is in danger, and that pre-dates covid.

 

[Robin L]

Have we transitioned this thread to the music industry?

The OP mentioned the HiFi industry...

I think only the retail brick & mortar end of things is in danger, and that pre-dates covid.

I mentioned the "Music Industry" because that, in my mind at least, is a driver of interest in audio. I'm not sure how that is going to turn out, but more and more music is self-produced. This might be the dawning of a new era of blazing creativity, but with no income stream from all that effort, engagement by musicians will dry up sooner or later.

As regards audio, only the crazy expensive stuff is on display for audition. Online sales will increase, the physical size of the components will decrease, I see that aspect of audio as stable for the moment, but most interest in audio will move to home theater.

 

[Chrispy]

The young guys who work at my local Best Buy, when asked to let you audition a pair of speakers, want to use the MP3 files on their phone as the source. This tells you that audiophile concerns don't exist for them. The speakers were Martin Logan ESL. When I tried to explain to him that I would prefer a higher quality source, he was genuinely puzzled. Apparently it had never occurred to him that the 128kbs files on his phone had any effect on sound quality. Audiophiles are a rapidly disappearing curiosity, I'm afraid. My daughters find it silly that I have an OPPO CDP. I just bought a new computer and it doesn't have a CD tray in it at all. The new car I bought four years ago has a USB port. No CDP. Not that it's any big loss I guess.
Physical mediums are a thing of the past. I just bought a firestick (cut my cable) and my music listening ever since has been all streaming. I still use a Yammy AVR as the central control point of the system mostly for it's various and versatile audio/video functionality. But my other stuff (cdp, tt, pre amp, power amp) have become mostly relics of the past. But they sure look cool sitting there in the entertainment system.

Did you actually check the bitrates they use or did you assume?

 

[Jimbob54]

I certainly am not very concerned about rich artists getting richer. What concerns me is the more restricted paths for up and coming artists to grow their careers. Indeed, where is that streaming money going?

 

[escksu]

I mentioned the "Music Industry" because that, in my mind at least, is a driver of interest in audio. I'm not sure how that is going to turn out, but more and more music is self-produced. This might be the dawning of a new era of blazing creativity, but with no income stream from all that effort, engagement by musicians will dry up sooner or later.

As regards audio, only the crazy expensive stuff is on display for audition. Online sales will increase, the physical size of the components will decrease, I see that aspect of audio as stable for the moment, but most interest in audio will move to home theater.

Regarding self-produced music, musicians do get quite a fair bit of income, esp. from their videos on youtube. Most of them have their own youtube channel and they are earning quite alot from the youtube ads. So, its not going to dry up anything soon. In fact, more and more are hopping onto the youtube bandwagon.

For audio, headphones and earphones are becoming increasingly popular. From my own observation, young adults today arent really interested in big speakers and amps etc.... They prefer smaller and more "trendy", lifestyle products. They prefer ease of use (hence MP3 and streaming becoming popular). mobile phones are fast becoming the choice of platform for streaming music.

I would say most are not particular about audio quality and aren't interested in all those hifi jargon. To them music and music, they are not particular about whether the imaging is sharp, staging is good or sound is similar to live performance etc.... So, MP3 is good enough.

Having said this, yes, traditional hifi will get even more niche than ever. You are also right to say that more and more are moving to home theatre instead. Even new users will jump right to HT rather than stereo. Another driving this is that projectors and big screen TVs are becoming more affordable than ever.

 

[valerianf]

The problem is not at the music industry or movie industry level as source materials have never been available in such a large quantity (streaming).
The problem is matching the hardware offer with the customers wishes.
If it is the users of phone, earbuds, soundbars that are making the mass market, then the manufacturers of AVR, BR players, tower speakers can close their factories.
Let us make a time jump: in the 80's, young people were sparing money to be able to buy equipment able to make big sound.
They were using it to make the sound at some parties, that was tolerated at that time.
For that you need watts, big speakers...
Nowadays young people have their phones and earbuds.
If they want to share the music with friends, at best they will use a Sonos speaker.
The battle is lost for the main hardware manufacturers.

All that left, year after year is a niche market.
Prices will go up (less volume production) and choice will be limited (manufacturer bankruptcies).
Sony, Technics, Aiwa, Panasonic, Akai, Thiele, Accoustic Reasearch ... are gone (for the audio market).

The audio world is changing, not in the direction of music quality listening ( at the exception of HD streaming).
I never listened music using a phone, or only in vacation (then I am out of range from my usual hardware).

 

[escksu]

The problem is not at the music industry or movie industry level as source materials have never been available in such a large quantity (streaming).
The problem is matching the hardware offer with the customers wishes.
If it is the users of phone, earbuds, soundbars that are making the mass market, then the manufacturers of AVR, BR players, tower speakers can close their factories.
Let us make a time jump: in the 80's, young people were sparing money to be able to buy equipment able to make big sound.
They were using it to make the sound at some parties, that was tolerated at that time.
For that you need watts, big speakers...
Nowadays young people have their phones and earbuds.
If they want to share the music with friends, at best they will use a Sonos speaker.
The battle is lost for the main hardware manufacturers.

All that left, year after year is a niche market.
Prices will go up (less volume production) and choice will be limited (manufacturer bankruptcies).
Sony, Technics, Aiwa, Panasonic, Akai, Thiele, Accoustic Reasearch ... are gone (for the audio market).

The audio world is changing, not in the direction of music quality listening ( at the exception of HD streaming).
I never listened music using a phone, or only in vacation (then I am out of range from my usual hardware).

Haha, today lifestyle audio products are the ones flooding the market.

The problem is not at the music industry or movie industry level as source materials have never been available in such a large quantity (streaming).
The problem is matching the hardware offer with the customers wishes.
If it is the users of phone, earbuds, soundbars that are making the mass market, then the manufacturers of AVR, BR players, tower speakers can close their factories.
Let us make a time jump: in the 80's, young people were sparing money to be able to buy equipment able to make big sound.
They were using it to make the sound at some parties, that was tolerated at that time.
For that you need watts, big speakers...
Nowadays young people have their phones and earbuds.
If they want to share the music with friends, at best they will use a Sonos speaker.
The battle is lost for the main hardware manufacturers.

All that left, year after year is a niche market.
Prices will go up (less volume production) and choice will be limited (manufacturer bankruptcies).
Sony, Technics, Aiwa, Panasonic, Akai, Thiele, Accoustic Reasearch ... are gone (for the audio market).

The audio world is changing, not in the direction of music quality listening ( at the exception of HD streaming).
I never listened music using a phone, or only in vacation (then I am out of range from my usual hardware).

One thing I notice with many people today is they do not really sit there and listen to music. Chances are they will be doing something else instead. Eg. surf net, facebook etc.... while listening to music. Hence, regardless of how incredible the the audio may be, if you arent paying attention, it will not be audible.