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Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

MattHooper

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. Also , applying exacting science to something subjective is a fraud in itself.

Are you kidding?

Science studies subjectivity all the time. You can run studies for instance to uncover reliable human preferences using typical scientific controls. Consider all the research cited by Floyd Toole and others.
 

fpitas

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Are you kidding?

Science studies subjectivity all the time. You can run studies for instance to uncover reliable human preferences using typical scientific controls. Consider all the research cited by Floyd Toole and others.
As a first post, it was very telling.
 

antcollinet

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Also , applying exacting science to something subjective is a fraud in itself.
How do you think audio kit is designed and developed? Do you think electronic engineers just throw random components into a box and shake it until something miraculous happens?

Or would you expect them to use science backed engineering know how?

It might be that music appreciation is mostly subjective. Designing and evaluating reproduction kit however is 99% engineering.

Have a :rolleyes: for your first post.
 

fpitas

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How do you think audio kit is designed and developed? Do you think electronic engineers just throw random components into a box and shake it until something miraculous happens?

Or would you expect them to use science backed engineering know how?

It might be that music appreciation is mostly subjective. Designing and evaluating reproduction kit however is mostly engineering.

Have a :rolleyes: for your first post.
Unicorns and flooby dust, is how I understand it.
 

Tedkaz

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Are you kidding?

Science studies subjectivity all the time. You can run studies for instance to uncover reliable human preferences using typical scientific controls. Consider all the research cited by Floyd Toole and others. I like blue because I like blu
How do you think audio kit is designed and developed? Do you think electronic engineers just throw random components into a box and shake it until something miraculous happens?

Or would you expect them to use science backed engineering know how?

It might be that music appreciation is mostly subjective. Designing and evaluating reproduction kit however is mostly engineering.

Have a :rolleyes: for your first post.
It’s all good, and in the end the best engineering does not create the best sounding equipment. Way more examples of brilliant engineering that sound like total shit, than there are of simplistic fundamentally basic designs that sound spectacular. But that is subjective as well ;-)
 

fpitas

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It’s all good, and in the end the best engineering does not create the best sounding equipment. Way more examples of brilliant engineering that sound like total shit, than there are of simplistic fundamentally basic designs that sound spectacular. But that is subjective as well ;-)
But isn't the latter (even allowing the point) an example of good engineering? What exactly are you talking about?
 

fpitas

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That's a marvel of understatement :)
 

antcollinet

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It’s all good, and in the end the best engineering does not create the best sounding equipment. Way more examples of brilliant engineering that sound like total shit, than there are of simplistic fundamentally basic designs that sound spectacular. But that is subjective as well ;-)

Citation needed.

(Quite apart from the point made by fpitas (good basic designs - in order to work well - need to be well engineered)
 

Tedkaz

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Over engineered would have been a better description. My personal experience simpler designs with minimal parts just seem to outperform more complex designs. That’s not to say the complex ones are bad either, if the complexity brought cost down and performance up.
 
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sergeauckland

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Over engineered would have been a better description. My personal experience simpler designs will minimal parts just seem to outperform more complex designs. That’s not to say the complex ones are bad either, if the complexity brought cost down and performance up.
Minimally engineered (or as I prefer to call it, badly engineered) amplifiers lack unconditional stability, short circuit and other protection, and whilst may operate OK under controlled circumstances, are flaky and unreliable. Properly engineered amplifiers will stand reasonable abuse and be long-term reliable.
Sadly certain 'boutique' manufacturers make a feature of how fussy their Amps are to create a mystique to cover the lack of proper engineering.

S
 

Tedkaz

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Minimally engineered (or as I prefer to call it, badly engineered) amplifiers lack unconditional stability, short circuit and other protection, and whilst may operate OK under controlled circumstances, are flaky and unreliable. Properly engineered amplifiers will stand reasonable abuse and be long-term reliable.
Sadly certain 'boutique' manufacturers make a feature of how fussy their Amps are to create a mystique to cover the lack of proper engineering.

S
Spot on, my old co worker used to love doing the screw driver across the speaker terminals test to show how well designed the McIntosh amps were that we serviced.
 

antcollinet

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Spot on, my old co worker used to love doing the screw driver across the speaker terminals test to show how well designed the McIntosh amps were that we serviced.
So what do you want?

Have you changed your mind from minimally engineered to properly engineered?
 

Jmudrick

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From new Stereophile:

"I'd hardly settled into my chair when he (Ted Denny, Synergistic Research) demonstrated the effect of his $1500 "Vibratron," a roughly six-feet-tall metal rod with two baseball-sized spheres, one gold-plated (for warmer sound), one silver (for brighter sound; mix and match to taste). They're resonators that Denney modeled after "forgotten Greek and Roman technology." To hear him tell it, the ancients knew how to use rounded vessels to improve room acoustics and intelligibility.

Next, we were on to the benefits of his MiG SX bidirectional equipment footers, $995 for a set of three, which you can install pointing up or down according to the sound signature you prefer. The MiGs are claimed to "improve nearly every aspect of system performance," starting with a "denser soundfield." I could hear the difference, couldn't I?I told my host I thought I did, but that I wasn't committing to a final opinion."

I always liked Von Schweikert speakers, the association with Synergistic is unfortunate. "No Ted I don't hear it" would have been a better response.

Wasn't the Vibatron featured in Woody Allen's "Sleeper"?.

 

Ken1951

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From new Stereophile:

"I'd hardly settled into my chair when he (Ted Denny, Synergistic Research) demonstrated the effect of his $1500 "Vibratron," a roughly six-feet-tall metal rod with two baseball-sized spheres, one gold-plated (for warmer sound), one silver (for brighter sound; mix and match to taste). They're resonators that Denney modeled after "forgotten Greek and Roman technology." To hear him tell it, the ancients knew how to use rounded vessels to improve room acoustics and intelligibility.

Next, we were on to the benefits of his MiG SX bidirectional equipment footers, $995 for a set of three, which you can install pointing up or down according to the sound signature you prefer. The MiGs are claimed to "improve nearly every aspect of system performance," starting with a "denser soundfield." I could hear the difference, couldn't I?I told my host I thought I did, but that I wasn't committing to a final opinion."

I always liked Von Schweikert speakers, the association with Synergistic is unfortunate. "No Ted I don't hear it" would have been a better response.

Wasn't the Vibatron featured in Woody Allen's "Sleeper"?.

If can appropriate a phrase from our good friends across the pond: "This guy just has to be taking the piss."
 
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