Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[keiron99]

Re. first post,

Though I resonate with you and myself got some good deals based on ASR, I understand you use DO 200 + 2x LA90 to drive a pair of Kef R11 ?
In my book and at my end of the keyboard (Europe), I just see some offers on idealo.de for Rotel RA 1592 Mkii at 2100 euro (kind of your budget), being the top of RA range (with Michi range following), which I would take anytime instead of DO 200 + LA90. It is just an example.

I have the Mark 1 version of that amp. I've had many Rotel items over the years because they are one of the few companies that don't do hyperbole - just straight forward, reliable, reasonably priced equipment with the facilities some of us like (such as tone and balance controls, which boutique brands leave off).

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Do you consider taking less money from more people, is somehow better than taking more money from less people?

Yes. Morally, I have a bias towards Utilitarianism, where it's best to select choices that achieve the greater good. 10 people scammed for 10k is better than 1000 scammed for 100.

 

[FeddyLost]

Morally, I have a bias towards Utilitarianism, where it's best to select choices that achieve the greater good. 10 people scammed for 10k is better than 1000 scammed for 100

Without understanding this situation deeper, it's not obvious. You might have different target group as often is - old rich guys vs teenagers with beats earphones and vice versa.
I'd still prefer 100K people for 1 since for most people it's almost nothing.

 

[okok]

of course, case closed

 

[scrubb]

...Or maybe it's the dealer simply letting consumers scam themselves.

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[JeffS7444]

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?

To some extent, yes, but it's really just the tip of the proverbial iceberg: In our consumerist marketplace, a certain amount of BS is tolerated, even encouraged, because it powers the economies of the world. And you need go no further than the shelves of a typical supermarket to see examples of products which cost more while delivering less (or nothing at all, in the case of herbal remedies), and shoppers who happily seek them out because they believe they are getting something better for their money.

I think that the truth will not set some audiophiles free, because they want to believe they are on a never-ending voyage of discovery, rather than simply chasing their own tails. And I can hardly blame some manufacturers for deciding that, if audiophiles are determined to spend a lot of money on say, cables, who are they to say "no" to easy money? Ethics-wise, if no bogus claims are made or implied, it's all good as far as I'm concerned. And while it's true that many so-called upgrades will make no audible improvement to one's sound, the dopamine rush associated with a new toy is real enough.

 

[atmasphere]

I've been on these forums for quite a while, and while I don't believe everything that is being said here, I'm constantly catching myself believing in the fraud.

Case and point - I spent well over $2000CAD on a Pre-amp (with >$500 on tubes for a Freya+) and a Denafrips Ares II, think that I will have an amazing setup with these two items. I've been listening to them for over a year now and I consider them to be great.

Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399 in the last 11.11 sale, and plugged it in. Immediately, I heard a lot worse sound, lack of bass and something's wrong with my speakers. Thinking to myself ah ha! I’ve made the right purchase decisions.

I then realized I had wired the left and rights wrong, so I fixed it and what a surprise, everything returned. More deeper bass (if you see my other thread about lack of bass with my R11's), room shaking response, a sense of excitement that was sorely lacking in the Denafrips and Freya combo, and just a sheer sense of "speed". Drums felt like they hit me with force, whereas in the previous setup they were dulled a bit. Although we are talking 99.9 vs 99.8 difference. The price difference is almost $2500 vs $399.

The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud? Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?

Hm. There are three things here that need addressing. The first is the old maxim 'trust your ears' that so many audiophiles stress when spending money on a system. Apparently you did that. So to be clear, you found out that the cost of a system isn't related to its 'sound'. But its a subjective thing as so many on this site like to point out and so meaningless

Except that in today's world, $399 has meaning.

The 2nd thing that you really need to take to heart is what defines 'high end' when it comes to audio. Many will say its price. It isn't! 'High end' arises out of intention and those that do not understand this simple fact are doomed to flush dollars down the loo. Of course what this means is that some equipment is built to make money while other equipment is built to deliver the goods. Price has very little to do with it.

The third thing that should be addressed is something called the Veblen Effect. If you look on Wikipedia (and don't ignore their pleas for a couple of bucks to maintain their site; they sorely deserve it) you'll find this as 'Veblen Goods'. The idea behind it is that because its more expensive it must therefore have greater value. When I first read about this, the example given was tuition at colleges and universities. Both found out long ago that if they reduce their tuition, enrollment decreases because there is a perception that the decreased cost is in line with an inferior education. So they all raise their rates; enrollment goes up.

The same thing happens in audio as it does with cameras, bicycles, cars... because I'm into bicycles I like to present the story of SunTour, a Japanese company, that developed an innovation with derailleurs. Back in the 1970s there was a guy named Frank Beito that had created a test jig to measure how fast and precisely a derailleur could shift. He measured all the product out there and found that the innovation SunTour had created had resulted in the best derailleur made, outperforming both Shimano and Campagnolo. The thing is, the latter two companies priced to what the market would bear while SunTour priced to a formula (resulting in lower cost). So SunTour found its way on to lots of cheaper bikes; despite the measurements it was regarded as inferior and to this day does not have the collector value of the actually inferior Campy parts from the same era. Does any of this sound familiar? It should!!

 

[Descartes]

That's sadder to think that they believe it than they're just being dishonest.

I don’t think they believe anything they just don’t want to bite the hand that feed them!

 

[fpitas]

Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

Tradition says she must be listening from the kitchen. Evidently that exaggerates all snake oil claims 100%

 

[MAB]

My limited experience selling hifi and my even more limited experiences with acquaintance's obsessions over the hifi they bought... Many audiophiles feel that they "put in hard work", "paired select components", "created a level of reality", "brought the musicians into their listening rooms", etc. They need validation that they played a role in making the music. Those people will never go away, and you can sell them anything so long you let them continue this creation fantasy. To me, this explains some of the behaviors of the industry.

 

[fpitas]

My limited experience selling hifi and my even more limited experiences with acquaintance's obsessions over the hifi they bought... Many audiophiles feel that they "put in hard work", "paired select components", "created a level of reality", "brought the musicians into their listening rooms", etc. They need validation that they played a role in making the music. Those people will never go away, and you can sell them anything so long you let them continue this creation fantasy. To me, this explains some of the behaviors of the industry.

I have to think gaining actual knowledge would short-circuit that process.

 

[Deleted member 21114]

They need validation that they played a role in making the music.

It's the "add an egg to the cake mix" problem. People like to feel invested.

Why cake mix lacks one essential ingredient

The invention of cake mix nearly foundered – but when manufacturers made a counter-intuitive change to their simple recipe, sales boomed.

www.bbc.com

 

[MAB]

I have to think gaining actual knowledge would short-circuit that process.

Yeah, maybe education. But I wonder, there seems to be a steady supply of people with zero musical talent, and it does seem audiophilia is a wasteland of talentless fiddling. To be clear, the store I worked in Seattle in the '80s sold to many engineers and techies who could of or should have been able to tell good from bad. But, as I delivered and set up gear in their houses, it was clear no music existed in their souls. To monetize that, we had a guy who specialized in upselling them bad performing and unreliable tube gear. We had a guy who specialized in upselling them from Bryston to Levinson. And we all specialized in selling them cables, because everybody wanted to believe that the creation process was made whole because... the choice of a cable, paired with a selection of a special tube amplifier that nobody else thought of brought their system to a level that was unmatched...

It's the "add an egg to the cake mix" problem. People like to feel invested.

Why cake mix lacks one essential ingredient

The invention of cake mix nearly foundered – but when manufacturers made a counter-intuitive change to their simple recipe, sales boomed.

www.bbc.com

Yes, exactly.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's the "add an egg to the cake mix" problem. People like to feel invested.

Why cake mix lacks one essential ingredient

The invention of cake mix nearly foundered – but when manufacturers made a counter-intuitive change to their simple recipe, sales boomed.

www.bbc.com

Yes, I think this is some of it too. I think high end audiophiles go even further almost into mythical and spiritual pursuit of the Absolute sound. Fewer people know enough about measurements and how to use them. They in fact do plenty and of course ways to measure and correct problems hasn't been affordable or available all that long. In time the tide may turn back the other way in some manner. Listening, and developing your skills in an undefined manner is easy and reinforces how good you feel about it with less effort thatn learning how to setup speakers in a more rational performance oriented manner.

 

[fpitas]

Yeah, maybe education. But I wonder, there seems to be a steady supply of people with zero musical talent, and it does seem audiophilia is a wasteland of talentless fiddling. To be clear, the store I worked in Seattle in the '80s sold to many engineers and techies who could of or should have been able to tell good from bad. But, as I delivered and set up gear in their houses, it was clear no music existed in their souls. To monetize that, we had a guy who specialized in upselling them bad performing and unreliable tube gear. We had a guy who specialized in upselling them from Bryston to Levinson. And we all specialized in selling them cables, because everybody wanted to believe that the creation process was made whole because... the choice of a cable, paired with a selection of a special tube amplifier that nobody else thought of brought their system to a level that was unmatched...

Yes, exactly.

I would have a lot of trouble working with an engineer who believed any of that stuff. I keep hearing they exist, though...

 

[dimedrol]

I personally think there's demand for expensive looking expensive equipment. It doesn't matter what science says about it, it is people having more money than they need. It will always be like that. It is normal. Most people that buy a Ferrari are not racers and will never become ones. What is not normal is some regular folks with a limited budget falling for audiophile voodoo crap and parting with their hard earned money while chasing the ever-elusive high fidelity. And for those guys ASR is the ultimate saviour. I think it is a mistake trying to cure those who invest in electric field cleansers or ectoplasm-shielded cables or discussing at length how foolish of them it is to buy those things or of the manufacturers to make those things.

 

[Chrispy]

My limited experience selling hifi and my even more limited experiences with acquaintance's obsessions over the hifi they bought... Many audiophiles feel that they "put in hard work", "paired select components", "created a level of reality", "brought the musicians into their listening rooms", etc. They need validation that they played a role in making the music. Those people will never go away, and you can sell them anything so long you let them continue this creation fantasy. To me, this explains some of the behaviors of the industry.

Consuming is hard!

 

[Blumlein 88]

I personally think there's demand for expensive looking expensive equipment. It doesn't matter what science says about it, it is people having more money than they need. It will always be like that. It is normal. Most people that buy a Ferrari are not racers and will never become ones. What is not normal is some regular folks with a limited budget falling for audiophile voodoo crap and parting with their hard earned money while chasing the ever-elusive high fidelity. And for those guys ASR is the ultimate saviour. I think it is a mistake trying to cure those who invest in electric field cleansers or ectoplasm-shielded cables or discussing at length how foolish of them it is to buy those things or of the manufacturers to make those things.

I will give credit to audiophiles for using their expensive gear. Most exotic car owners barely use them at all. Making them far more status symbols than anything else.

 

[dimedrol]

I will give credit to audiophiles for using their expensive gear. Most exotic car owners barely use them at all. Making them far more status symbols than anything else.

personally, I don't see any achievement in being an audiophile. To me it is kinda like dedicating your time to finding the most comfortable chair to put your butt in. It is understandable but nothing to write home about. Nowhere near being a semi-decent musician or music expert or audio engineer in my book.

 

[JeffS7444]

Imagine a world in which shoppers had a decent appreciation for science versus emotion (and I shall include ideology and rhetoric under the heading of "emotion"), and applied it to all aspects of their lives: I figure that they'd work less, spend less, a big chunk of the economy would collapse, and we'd be facing technological stagnation, albeit, maybe a happy stagnation. It would differ from Soviet-style central planning in the sense that it'd still be a market-driven economy, but there simply would be no real demand for hypercars, tube amplifiers, R2R DACs, fat cables, designer handbags, and the like.

Some of my favorite consumerism-themed science fiction tales include The Space Merchants by Frederick Pohl and Cyril Kornbluth, The Merchant's War by Pohl, and The Midas Plague, also by Pohl.