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Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

kemmler3D

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The biggest fraud in the industry in youtube channels and hifi papers AND dealers is that more expensive electronics is always better than less expensive. And you never see those cheap, good bargains like Aiyima a07 or Topping d10s reviewed by What Hifi. I guess its all about advertising.
Indeed, they are not really trying hard to hide it, even. In any of those reviews of ethernet switches or power conditioners, did the reviewers think to throw in a little confirmatory evidence?

Like "oh, I noticed my Netflix was glitching out, and then I used this fancy switch and now it's fine" or "My alarm clock kept losing time but now it's good with the fancy power conditioner?"

Somehow the only appliances in their houses that are affected are audio gear... hm... you mean to tell me every piece of electronics on the planet has better shielding, error correction, and power conditioning than audio gear? How odd that you also accept ad dollars from the same industry! What could possibly be going on here...?

I think the reviewers really do give themselves placebo effects with the gear. They aren't lying, or at least they are lying to everyone including themselves. But this is why you will never see any measure of efficacy for this stuff outside of audio, because you can't placebo-effect yourself into believing these things actually work except in some magical way that nobody should look into.
 

Chrispy

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I think the reviewers really do give themselves placebo effects with the gear. They aren't lying, or at least they are lying to everyone including themselves. But this is why you will never see any measure of efficacy for this stuff outside of audio, because you can't placebo-effect yourself into believing these things actually work except in some magical way that nobody should look into.
That's sadder to think that they believe it than they're just being dishonest.
 

Holmz

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The differences heard are so miniscule that one can chalk it up to placebo

Maybe…
Maybe not.

If one could pick the SMSL in a statistically meaningful way, then know whether it is minuscule or not.
 

alex-z

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TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?
Differences in DAC + amplifier technology are minuscule. Those changes you heard? Probably placebo effect. Unless a product in inherently flawed, they should all sound the same. Only the speakers or headphones themselves should actually contribute to frequency response. Amir has not only demonstrated this in his reviews, but discussions have occurred on these forums about the validity of the measurements themselves, and while some people argue about which measurements to conduct, the broad conclusion is that the measurements currently performed are 100% valid.

On the financial side, you can get a $160 balanced DAC with near state of the art performance, and a $600 amp to match. (SMSL D-6 and Hypex NC252MP)

For the average audiophile, there is zero reason to ever spend more than that on their electronics. Subjective reviewers who claim to hear huge differences in expensive gear are fraudulent, some unknowingly, some knowingly.
 

Snarfie

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Fraud, misrepresentation, lies and deception are rife* across practically every industry out there. Audio is no different. It's up to individuals to protect themselves by educating themselves- nobody can do it for them.

* One of my closest friends of 30 years, with terminal cancer asked me to look at her AU$12,000 'rife frequency machine' and tell her if I thought it was 'good'. I was as honest as I could be.
Quite a daunting task.
 

charleski

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Quote from JGH who founded Stereophile.
Here’s the link to the source:
 

tmuikku

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OP, others: There is group of people politely called as consumers. Once you realize you don't buy what you need but what you want, and that want is not set by you but marketing teams here and there and everywhere there is a possibility to look the system from different perspective and step out. For Hifi products the marketing is quite easy to see once you open your eyes and when you do there is possibility to see it elsewhere as well. How about leaving the consumer group, get some happiness in exchange? think about it, what consumer consume? the answer is future of the human kind, the planet, them selves... and morning coffee :) Good morning
 

antcollinet

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Fraud, misrepresentation, lies and deception are rife* across practically every industry out there. Audio is no different. It's up to individuals to protect themselves by educating themselves- nobody can do it for them.

* One of my closest friends of 30 years, with terminal cancer asked me to look at her AU$12,000 'rife frequency machine' and tell her if I thought it was 'good'. I was as honest as I could be.
Had to look that up. If I hadn't already reached the end stop in my disgust at how the greedy will prey on the vulnerable - that would have cranked it up another notch. :(
 

kongwee

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It is not a fraud, you just recognized you couldn't like tube sound. It is paid lesson. You have not audit enough.
 

Purité Audio

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Support measurement led companies.
And the occasional tar and feathering.
Keith
 

MaxwellsEq

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The cheap end doesn't help. Really low cost kit manufactures make claims which are equally fake. Morally, the effect seems less repugnant, because they take less money from people.

So, no matter how much consumers spend, they are being lied to.
 

restorer-john

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Morally, the effect seems less repugnant, because they take less money from people.

Do you consider taking less money from more people, is somehow better than taking more money from less people?

Say a far eastern company blatantly lies about power output on a US$200 amplifier which only produces a quarter of its rated power in real terms. But they sell 10 million amplifiers.

Or a US manufacturer who produces a US$3000 amplifier that sells maybe a thousand units, all of which do not meet their specs either.

Which is worse? The company that has ripped-off millions of customers who can least afford it, or the brand that has ripped off well heeled audiophiles with an already fat wallet? And why do we care anyway?
 

JSmith

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well heeled audiophiles with an already fat wallet
Not that I don't see your point mate... but I've had associates who would almost sell a kidney to get that next cable or amp upgrade. Surely not as common as the "fat wallet" type, but certainly there are many that will spend their money on expensive audio devices when they may not be in the best position to do so. Companies that deal in false or misleading claims should certainly be called out for doing so regardless of the price of their products.


JSmith
 

keiron99

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The biggest fraud in the industry in youtube channels and hifi papers AND some dealers, is that more expensive electronics is always better than less expensive. And you never see those cheap, good bargains like Aiyima a07 or Topping d10s reviewed by What Hifi. I guess its all about advertising.
It always amazes me how many people you see on other forums asking questions like "Recommend me an amplifier for £3,000 +". They set themselves a minimum price. It's like the money is burning a hole in their pocket.
 

valerianf

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"The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud?"
Audio reproduction equipments are electronics nowadays.
You need to understand that when I was in a EE school in the 80's tubes were already obsolete for the students.
Regarding a turntable, well it becomes technically obsolete when Philips/Sony introduced the CD in 1984.

Now, everybody can listen music the way he wants: a music box with a ballerina has some charm.
It is vintage.

The user that spend money has the final choice: for example reading ASR forum is a good place to get some technical information before spending money.
And yes, as in all human activities, there are some companies that are selling overpriced obsolete items.
 

Overseas

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Putting sound aside and referring to 'fraud', there are many scenarios to manufacture expensive products that are not 'frauds' i. e. do not bring obscene margins to manufacturers. E. G. using expensive materials or parts even if not strictly required or lots of qualified workforce like 10 engineers extensively testing each product or many blonde hostesses very carefully packing the product.
 

N9R

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My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?

Pretty much, yes

By and large, electronic engineering problems in the Audio domain were solved a very long time ago. Advances in manufacturing over recent decades have reduced the cost of implementation to a near-trivial amount.

These days, serious efforts in electronic engineering are not focused on solving Audio problems, as there isn't really much point. Look to the bleeding edge of computing for where many of the challenges are - challenges that are several orders of magnitude more difficult to solve than mere audio.

High end audio these days is more a furniture thing than an engineering thing. And that's fine - who doesn't like to have beautiful, well-made things in our homes? - but don't expect noticeably superior performance, as you may feel like you've wasted your money. Or worse, you may feel compelled to join high-end audio internet communities which employ pseudoscience and magical thinking to make you feel a little better about all that money you needlessly spent.

Digressing somewhat, it's no small irony to me that the Internet - the technological and scientific marvel of the 21st century, some would say - so effectively provides a support system for people who wish, for whatever reason, to live their lives free from intrusion by facts and science. Perhaps some day we'll stop caring so much about making computers better, and start caring more about making people better ;)
 

Palladium

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It always amazes me how many people you see on other forums asking questions like "Recommend me an amplifier for £3,000 +". They set themselves a minimum price. It's like the money is burning a hole in their pocket.

I have seen one AC cable and one pair of speaker cables that cost more than my four sets of stereo combined ($1900).
 

Overseas

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Re. first post,
Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399

I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.
Though I resonate with you and myself got some good deals based on ASR, I understand you use DO 200 + 2x LA90 to drive a pair of Kef R11 ?
In my book and at my end of the keyboard (Europe), I just see some offers on idealo.de for Rotel RA 1592 Mkii at 2100 euro (kind of your budget), being the top of RA range (with Michi range following), which I would take anytime instead of DO 200 + LA90. It is just an example.
 
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