Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[bodhi]

So I think the high-end audio realm still has incredible stuff, it's just not going to bring you any great gains any more over the good-enough stuff.

Many of the arguments in hifi are caused by people not wanting to accept that.

 

[jooc]

Example of how high-end companies cheat: We use a lab-tested monotonic radially diminishing magnetic field pattern in our drivers to optimize linear cone motion and reduce distortion.

Translation: It's a normal magnet and we measured the field in a lab at some point, in the process of building a completely normal speaker.

I've often thought that the manufacturers description of a component sounds like a Linkedin/resume description of job duties

Linkedin: "Complete daily analysis of on-prem and cloud capabilities through six-sigma methodologies adapted to hybrid data-center implementations"

Translation: made sure everything was turned on each day and running

 

[fpitas]

Given all other things being equal, I would agree with that statement. Well, not always though . I mean, maybe for a car, or an audio equipment or furniture, but less so for an industrial washer or a lighting pole. I don't think people procure industrial washers or lighting poles on perceived quality alone, but I might be wrong. Also for space equipment as well. I doubt they chose components for Mars Rover based on perceived quality only. But for consumer products, sure. However in order to have a perception of high quality, you should also have a metric of some sort. Does not need to be objective metric of course, doesn't need to be conscious even, but a metric nonetheless is needed to be able to discern high quality from low quality. And no shame if those metrics are "non-technical" as well - I'd imagine that's how majority of people make purchase decisions for, well everything that is not a piece of clothing probably. For more involved consumers however, I think it is also fair not to take the seller on their word but ask questions, demanding the seller to quantify their quality . So overall, I'd say I agree, It is the perceived quality that matters, except when the perception is incorrect, then it does not.

Engineers demand datasheets, typically. I can't imagine how I would design using boutique audiophile parts, which are sold by glossy picture and fulsome praise. Neither of those will fit into my simulation software

 

[egellings]

Given all other things being equal, I would agree with that statement. Well, not always though . I mean, maybe for a car, or an audio equipment or furniture, but less so for an industrial washer or a lighting pole. I don't think people procure industrial washers or lighting poles on perceived quality alone, but I might be wrong. Also for space equipment as well. I doubt they chose components for Mars Rover based on perceived quality only. But for consumer products, sure. However in order to have a perception of high quality, you should also have a metric of some sort. Does not need to be objective metric of course, doesn't need to be conscious even, but a metric nonetheless is needed to be able to discern high quality from low quality. And no shame if those metrics are "non-technical" as well - I'd imagine that's how majority of people make purchase decisions for, well everything that is not a piece of clothing probably. For more involved consumers however, I think it is also fair not to take the seller on their word but ask questions, demanding the seller to quantify their quality . So overall, I'd say I agree, It is the perceived quality that matters, except when the perception is incorrect, then it does not.

In an industrial setting, equipment has to deliver the goods, regardless of looks. It's a "We ain't here to look purdy; we're here to play fuh-baw" aesthetic in the industrial setting. Same for home some appliances, although I have seen some pretty nice-looking expensive clothes washer-dryer combos. With entertainment equipment, I think that looks play a bigger role in appreciation of it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Engineers demand datasheets, typically. I can't imagine how I would design using boutique audiophile parts, which are sold by glossy picture and fulsome praise. Neither of those will fit into my simulation software

Simple. Use that chat gpt thing. Input the descriptions of the components and have it simulate a result.

 

[Killingbeans]

Now, we have Asian manufacturers using Texas Instruments and German Infineon chips for example to create truly great, inexpensive amplifiers and DACS (not speakers yet! ) and we can get into the hi-fi realm for little money, now.

And then there's companies like Axign who put all of that in a single chip. It's a good time to be alive if you want cheap no-nonsense audio reproduction.

 

[fpitas]

Simple. Use that chat gpt thing. Input the descriptions of the components and have it simulate a result.

Brilliant!!!

Will ChatGPT calm my boss down when my stuff doesn't work right?

 

[IAtaman]

In an industrial setting, equipment has to deliver the goods, regardless of looks. It's a "We ain't here to look purdy; we're here to play fuh-baw" aesthetic in the industrial setting. Same for home some appliances, although I have seen some pretty nice-looking expensive clothes washer-dryer combos. With entertainment equipment, I think that looks play a bigger role in appreciation of it.

I don't disagree with that. I will probably get myself a Violectric Amp, full knowing that performance wise it is not worth it. But it still needs to work, it still needs to do its job well.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Brilliant!!!

Will ChatGPT calm my boss down when my stuff doesn't work right?

If you market it right, maybe again with ChatGPT help, it won't matter if it works, only if customers believe it works.

 

[atmasphere]

Engineers demand datasheets, typically. I can't imagine how I would design using boutique audiophile parts, which are sold by glossy picture and fulsome praise. Neither of those will fit into my simulation software

Engineers do, making recommendations which may or may not make it past the bean counters. In municipal situations, it might come down to politics.

 

[fpitas]

Engineers do, making recommendations which may or may not make it past the bean counters. In municipal situations, it might come down to politics.

Thankfully, in my industry there are no boutique parts. The customers just expect to use our stuff and have it work.

 

[simplywyn]

Another point, 1.2kW amps from macintosh, I’m reading this article:

The McIntosh MC1.2KW Power Amplifiers

McIntosh made a big splash a while back with its six-box, 2,000-watt MC2KW power amplifiers. They are very cool, play incredibly loud (if you have enough juice in your power line to let them wind out all the way) and command an impressive presence. Many lovers of the McIntosh brand see them as...

www.tonepublications.com

If I place a 1.3kW class D and one of these, will I ever hear the difference?

I mean my speakers are rated for 300W max, and most sound is 1W at 87db already

Explain why this even matters other than stupid pointless numbers

 

[Blumlein 88]

Another point, 1.2kW amps from macintosh, I’m reading this article:

The McIntosh MC1.2KW Power Amplifiers

McIntosh made a big splash a while back with its six-box, 2,000-watt MC2KW power amplifiers. They are very cool, play incredibly loud (if you have enough juice in your power line to let them wind out all the way) and command an impressive presence. Many lovers of the McIntosh brand see them as...

www.tonepublications.com

If I place a 1.3kW class D and one of these, will I ever hear the difference?

I mean my speakers are rated for 300W max, and most sound is 1W at 87db already

Explain why this even matters other than stupid pointless numbers

I've got a pair of Soundlabs that could use that kind of power. So not completely pointless.

 

[Galliardist]

Another point, 1.2kW amps from macintosh, I’m reading this article:

The McIntosh MC1.2KW Power Amplifiers

McIntosh made a big splash a while back with its six-box, 2,000-watt MC2KW power amplifiers. They are very cool, play incredibly loud (if you have enough juice in your power line to let them wind out all the way) and command an impressive presence. Many lovers of the McIntosh brand see them as...

www.tonepublications.com

If I place a 1.3kW class D and one of these, will I ever hear the difference?

I mean my speakers are rated for 300W max, and most sound is 1W at 87db already

Explain why this even matters other than stupid pointless numbers

Just this once, I can actually say "I've heard these". In a dealer's demo room, of course, with ultra expensive PMC speakers. The sound was, well, crap.

Of course, it shouldn't have been.

Anyway - to answer your question, the McIntosh big amps have their autoformers, so you would need to check across the different output taps for the best response. And apparently not all speakers work well with the autoformers, so for comparison to a large class D amp the result may be system dependent. There's no reason why the McIntosh amps shouldn't be fine in a well matched setup - and they should drive some of the equally ridiculous speakers with ultra low impedance that need lots and lots of power. But so will that class D amp, of course. I'm pretty certain there is a speaker designer right now working on a speaker that requires 2.4kW per channel, though, and the reviewers will praise them to the hilt of course!

Your electricity supplier will love you if you buy these amps, of course. Especially at current (pun not intended) prices in so many countries right now.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Crap sound due to the PMCs likely. What a scam if I’ve ever seen one. Measure badly and the sound tires you out. Seductive at first. So many on the used market.

 

[Mnyb]

simplywyn,
I too had a similar situation arise when trying to decide on whether to keep a high end streamer. As read about streaming technology, I realized that a digital signal is not subject to the typical interference associated with wires and cables. Moreover, there's now lots of inexpensive streamers with capable tech via reputable manufacturers. Enter David the iFi Zen Stream ($399) vs Goliath, the Lumin U1 streamer ($7.5k). Three of us listening to the same content over the same electronics could not tell the difference between the Zen and Lumin under blindfolded conditions. Ok, probably not the stringent methodology employed in a laboratory setting, but all things equal to the extent possible. I'm not trying to beat up Lumin, they make great products; I've a owned a few. Nor am I suggesting fraud. Rather, it's an industry steeped in tradition, subjectivity as well as aesthetics and emotion not unlike politics and religion (not picking on politics or religion). Thus, never discount the impact of new and shiny products described more as necessities both unique and futuristic. Truth be told, most gear these days is really good at music reproduction. It's my impression that the industry does what all consumer product industries do, they market their products to appeal to our "must have the new, shiny and provocative gear. It's not easy out there.............

Yes I tried my >40k$ MeridianG98DH DVDA player against my squeezebox or raspberry pi as digital sources sound identical as expected.

 

[egellings]

Another point, 1.2kW amps from macintosh, I’m reading this article:

The McIntosh MC1.2KW Power Amplifiers

McIntosh made a big splash a while back with its six-box, 2,000-watt MC2KW power amplifiers. They are very cool, play incredibly loud (if you have enough juice in your power line to let them wind out all the way) and command an impressive presence. Many lovers of the McIntosh brand see them as...

www.tonepublications.com

If I place a 1.3kW class D and one of these, will I ever hear the difference?

I mean my speakers are rated for 300W max, and most sound is 1W at 87db already

Explain why this even matters other than stupid pointless numbers

Why 1.2kW, no matter the tech used to generate it? If both the class D and the McIntosh have adequately low output impedance and distortion and wide enough frequency response, then you will not hear a difference, at matched volume levels.

 

[atmasphere]

I've got a pair of Soundlabs that could use that kind of power. So not completely pointless.

Sound Labs have a 30 Ohm peak in the bass, so the 2000 Watts becomes more like 670 or so. They also are not 'voltage driven' like most box speakers.

 

[kevinh]

Sound Labs have a 30 Ohm peak in the bass, so the 2000 Watts becomes more like 670 or so. They also are not 'voltage driven' like most box speakers.

As I recall Roger said the Atmasphere OTL amps were quote happy driving the SL due to their impedance curve. The load of the Electrostatic looks like a Big Capacitor.

 

[egellings]

Some amplifiers may oscillate when seeing a load like that.