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Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

This is not the thread for this, but if you are genuinely intrigued and open to advice, open a thread in Room Acoustics and General Speaker Discussions.
with a picture{s} and a drawing of your set up in your room and I (and no doubt many other) will be glad to help you discover and understand "what sound stage actually is".

My problem with this hobby is how expensive everything has become. These speakers are no way in hell this expensive to make. I'm guessing it's because it's a low margin high expense type problem buyt seriously, I can buy a 4090 RTX that's got billions of transistors using some of the world's most cutting edge technology for only $2000, and a stupid pair of subwoofers are $4200 that's nothing but some wood, polish and some magnets and cones.
 
My problem with this hobby is how expensive everything has become. These speakers are no way in hell this expensive to make. I'm guessing it's because it's a low margin high expense type problem buyt seriously, I can buy a 4090 RTX that's got billions of transistors using some of the world's most cutting edge technology for only $2000, and a stupid pair of subwoofers are $4200 that's nothing but some wood, polish and some magnets and cones.

Speakers haven't benefitted from Moore's law for the last 50 years.
 
Video game players consider NVIDIA an evil company for selling their cards at high prices. By switching to a Topping DAC from a Chord DAC you get like five brand new RTX 4090s immediately and the only thing you lose is ... nothing.
 
My problem with this hobby is how expensive everything has become
Access to excellent performance as never been cheaper, you are doing it wrong.
So called "High End" ( what ever that means), is not where the game is.
Access to digital file is almost free, great measuring DAC are very inexpensive, powerful D class amplifier with great measurements are very inexpensive, very decent speakers, new and used can be had for not much money, same with SUB. Measuring software to optimize anything: Free, the mic to use the software: $ 100.00. Never better!
 
Access to excellent performance as never been cheaper, you are doing it wrong.
So called "High End" ( what ever that means), is not where the game is.
Access to digital file is almost free, great measuring DAC are very inexpensive, powerful D class amplifier with great measurements are very inexpensive, very decent speakers, new and used can be had for not much money, same with SUB. Measuring software to optimize anything: Free, the mic to use the software: $ 100.00. Never better!
I mostly agree, its been great 'fun' playing with relatively cheap great measuring DAC's, Amp's and Speakers (and while I initially thought against it the $100 Umik Mic has been a fantastic purchase) - the only thing I would slightly disagree is its almost impossible to get a decent cheap Sub in Europe - If I spend say Eur300 on speakers, maybe Eur100/150 for a DAC and similar for a reasonable Class D Amp - its a shame that there isn't a good Sub for less than Eur400 in Europe - I believe there are way better options for cheap Sub's in the US and while I can easily sell on a DAC / Amp / Speaker that I might not like for whatever reason (at little or no loss), I am mostly stuck with whatever Sub (usually too heavy to ship)
 
Access to excellent performance as never been cheaper, you are doing it wrong.
So called "High End" ( what ever that means), is not where the game is.
Access to digital file is almost free, great measuring DAC are very inexpensive, powerful D class amplifier with great measurements are very inexpensive, very decent speakers, new and used can be had for not much money, same with SUB. Measuring software to optimize anything: Free, the mic to use the software: $ 100.00. Never better!

It's almost sad how quickly the diminishing returns.

Something like Topping DX3 Pro+, Audiophonics MPA-S250NC, Kef R3 and Sennheiser HD560S. Maybe add minidsp with UMIK-1 and you are set for both speakers and headphones, about 2k.

And in all honesty you can probably run the 560S directly from any headphone output and get Kali Audio LP-6 with it, both for 550.

For sub you unfortunately have to spend a bit more compared to rest, something like ~500€ for BK Electronics XLS200 or 800€ for Arendal/SVS offerings.
 
Speakers haven't benefitted from Moore's law for the last 50 years.
I mean... there's physics, a la Col. Paul W. Klipsch's bon mot of long ago.

They make miniature tubes and miniature loudspeakers, but they have yet to come up with a miniature 32-foot wavelength.

1675175769799.png

;)
 
Video game players consider NVIDIA an evil company for selling their cards at high prices.
And your point ^here^ is…?

By switching to a Topping DAC from a Chord DAC you get like five brand new RTX 4090s immediately and the only thing you lose is ... nothing.
Ah… you are not dong supercomputer or high performance computing… you are a gamer.
 
I mean... there's physics, a la Col. Paul W. Klipsch's bon mot of long ago.



View attachment 261325
;)
He seemed like a smart man. And he was right about horns, in general. But he must have hated his listeners using that silly midrange horn and dubious driver :facepalm:
 
Graphics card, processors and the like are a nice comparison in that even the serious hobbyists just buy measurable performance. Usually you really don't even need the most powerful ones but if you get them you can immediately see how they affect the performance. Even those that don't even use the parts other than to run measurements still want to have something for the money. Nobody is claiming that by getting 900fps instead of 600 in CS:GO you perform better in the game or that your game looks better with overclocked, watercooled processor. There is some brand loyalty but usually if you get similar performance and save 50€ people get whatever is the cheapest.
 
I mostly agree, its been great 'fun' playing with relatively cheap great measuring DAC's, Amp's and Speakers (and while I initially thought against it the $100 Umik Mic has been a fantastic purchase) - the only thing I would slightly disagree is its almost impossible to get a decent cheap Sub in Europe - If I spend say Eur300 on speakers, maybe Eur100/150 for a DAC and similar for a reasonable Class D Amp - its a shame that there isn't a good Sub for less than Eur400 in Europe - I believe there are way better options for cheap Sub's in the US and while I can easily sell on a DAC / Amp / Speaker that I might not like for whatever reason (at little or no loss), I am mostly stuck with whatever Sub (usually too heavy to ship)

Where in Europe. Check out BKelec in UK.
 
Where in Europe. Check out BKelec in UK.
In Ireland, which before Brexit was easy to order from the UK, now I see even BKelec, will charge me the UK price, £28 towards shipping and then I have to pay the Irish import duty (of 23%) and then a Eur5 handling feel. If all that is not bad enough, If I am not satisfied it's very hard to get a refund or the return the item. Amazon.co.uk or Richersounds are some of the best options but have a very limited selection of SUB's
 
I've been on these forums for quite a while, and while I don't believe everything that is being said here, I'm constantly catching myself believing in the fraud.

Case and point - I spent well over $2000CAD on a Pre-amp (with >$500 on tubes for a Freya+) and a Denafrips Ares II, think that I will have an amazing setup with these two items. I've been listening to them for over a year now and I consider them to be great.

Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399 in the last 11.11 sale, and plugged it in. Immediately, I heard a lot worse sound, lack of bass and something's wrong with my speakers. Thinking to myself ah ha! I’ve made the right purchase decisions.

I then realized I had wired the left and rights wrong, so I fixed it and what a surprise, everything returned. More deeper bass (if you see my other thread about lack of bass with my R11's), room shaking response, a sense of excitement that was sorely lacking in the Denafrips and Freya combo, and just a sheer sense of "speed". Drums felt like they hit me with force, whereas in the previous setup they were dulled a bit. Although we are talking 99.9 vs 99.8 difference. The price difference is almost $2500 vs $399.

The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud? Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?
simplywyn,
I too had a similar situation arise when trying to decide on whether to keep a high end streamer. As read about streaming technology, I realized that a digital signal is not subject to the typical interference associated with wires and cables. Moreover, there's now lots of inexpensive streamers with capable tech via reputable manufacturers. Enter David the iFi Zen Stream ($399) vs Goliath, the Lumin U1 streamer ($7.5k). Three of us listening to the same content over the same electronics could not tell the difference between the Zen and Lumin under blindfolded conditions. Ok, probably not the stringent methodology employed in a laboratory setting, but all things equal to the extent possible. I'm not trying to beat up Lumin, they make great products; I've a owned a few. Nor am I suggesting fraud. Rather, it's an industry steeped in tradition, subjectivity as well as aesthetics and emotion not unlike politics and religion (not picking on politics or religion). Thus, never discount the impact of new and shiny products described more as necessities both unique and futuristic. Truth be told, most gear these days is really good at music reproduction. It's my impression that the industry does what all consumer product industries do, they market their products to appeal to our "must have the new, shiny and provocative gear. It's not easy out there.............
 
This is my humble theory : In the past if you wanted to make a great DAC, you needed capable engineering teams, spending time (and money) designing and optimizing the circuitry, selecting the right components, binning and matching individually if required etc. to be able to develop a great product. All of these required a lot money of course, and required it upfront. So you'd be investing piles of money on a product which was not sure to deliver any results, probably making you ask for a higher return on your investment. If you had the good product you were aiming for, and given the sales volumes are also low, you will need to operate at very high margins to recover and get return on your R&D cost. And even the R&D work you did last year did not yield any significant results, you still needed to be able to sell the new products, so you would start using a bit of creative licence when introducing the new product. "It uses the latest technology linear transistors" you'd say hoping that it sounded like worth spending the extra to the buyer. A niche market such as this with such high margins always attracts sharks of course, trying to make some good money by bullshitting people who were ready pay top dollar for a new product that has some vague claim for improvement over last year's model, like the other genuine engineering companies are doing. Buyer can not tell the difference anyway, so why not! Outside of snake oil tradering sharks, it is mostly the same marketing that is employed by every industry in my opinion. You have a new dac, you write it sounds great on it and quote a remotely relevant sounding technical spec to sound like you really mean what you say - looks like standard business practice to me. What is different now I think is that all that expensive R&D work is mostly done by the fabless semiconductor manufacturers who has volume to recover the costs. so for Topping and SMSL the only major cost is manufacturing, lack of high and risky R&D makes the products much cheaper, expands the market, making the economies of scale work evern better. I think we should expect nothing but decreasing prices per performance in the coming years, and sadly, but also naturally, majority of the old school engineering houses to go out of business. I just want to get a Violectric before all that happens :)
 
This is my humble theory : In the past if you wanted to make a great DAC, you needed capable engineering teams, spending time (and money) designing and optimizing the circuitry, selecting the right components, binning and matching individually if required etc. to be able to develop a great product. All of these required a lot money of course, and required it upfront. So you'd be investing piles of money on a product which was not sure to deliver any results, probably making you ask for a higher return on your investment. If you had the good product you were aiming for, and given the sales volumes are also low, you will need to operate at very high margins to recover and get return on your R&D cost. And even the R&D work you did last year did not yield any significant results, you still needed to be able to sell the new products, so you would start using a bit of creative licence when introducing the new product. "It uses the latest technology linear transistors" you'd say hoping that it sounded like worth spending the extra to the buyer. A niche market such as this with such high margins always attracts sharks of course, trying to make some good money by bullshitting people who were ready pay top dollar for a new product that has some vague claim for improvement over last year's model, like the other genuine engineering companies are doing. Buyer can not tell the difference anyway, so why not! Outside of snake oil tradering sharks, it is mostly the same marketing that is employed by every industry in my opinion. You have a new dac, you write it sounds great on it and quote a remotely relevant sounding technical spec to sound like you really mean what you say - looks like standard business practice to me. What is different now I think is that all that expensive R&D work is mostly done by the fabless semiconductor manufacturers who has volume to recover the costs. so for Topping and SMSL the only major cost is manufacturing, lack of high and risky R&D makes the products much cheaper, expands the market, making the economies of scale work evern better. I think we should expect nothing but decreasing prices per performance in the coming years, and sadly, but also naturally, majority of the old school engineering houses to go out of business. I just want to get a Violectric before all that happens :)
And worse the Violectric does not really perform very well relatively speaking without even considering the considerable cost. But boy does it ever look cool, and looks like it would feel good to interface with it as an owner.
 
And worse the Violectric does not really perform very well relatively speaking without even considering the considerable cost. But boy does it ever look cool, and looks like it would feel good to interface with it as an owner.
They certainly looks good. More than good, they look majestic, like an old steamship, and probably weigh as much as well - it is a pain to get them shipped if you are not living in the EU.
 
simplywyn,
I too had a similar situation arise when trying to decide on whether to keep a high end streamer. As read about streaming technology, I realized that a digital signal is not subject to the typical interference associated with wires and cables. Moreover, there's now lots of inexpensive streamers with capable tech via reputable manufacturers. Enter David the iFi Zen Stream ($399) vs Goliath, the Lumin U1 streamer ($7.5k). Three of us listening to the same content over the same electronics could not tell the difference between the Zen and Lumin under blindfolded conditions. Ok, probably not the stringent methodology employed in a laboratory setting, but all things equal to the extent possible. I'm not trying to beat up Lumin, they make great products; I've a owned a few. Nor am I suggesting fraud. Rather, it's an industry steeped in tradition, subjectivity as well as aesthetics and emotion not unlike politics and religion (not picking on politics or religion). Thus, never discount the impact of new and shiny products described more as necessities both unique and futuristic. Truth be told, most gear these days is really good at music reproduction. It's my impression that the industry does what all consumer product industries do, they market their products to appeal to our "must have the new, shiny and provocative gear. It's not easy out there.............
This is an excellent example of how high end audio (since the Lumin is mentioned) is driven by intention rather than cost. And how the Veblen Effect causes people to spend more money than they need to get the same quality.
 
I've been on these forums for quite a while, and while I don't believe everything that is being said here, I'm constantly catching myself believing in the fraud.

Case and point - I spent well over $2000CAD on a Pre-amp (with >$500 on tubes for a Freya+) and a Denafrips Ares II, think that I will have an amazing setup with these two items. I've been listening to them for over a year now and I consider them to be great.

Lo and behold, I decided to buy a SMSL DO200, for around $399 in the last 11.11 sale, and plugged it in. Immediately, I heard a lot worse sound, lack of bass and something's wrong with my speakers. Thinking to myself ah ha! I’ve made the right purchase decisions.

I then realized I had wired the left and rights wrong, so I fixed it and what a surprise, everything returned. More deeper bass (if you see my other thread about lack of bass with my R11's), room shaking response, a sense of excitement that was sorely lacking in the Denafrips and Freya combo, and just a sheer sense of "speed". Drums felt like they hit me with force, whereas in the previous setup they were dulled a bit. Although we are talking 99.9 vs 99.8 difference. The price difference is almost $2500 vs $399.

The more and more I realize, maybe this industry is just a load of fraud? Even using my wife as a test, she likes the SMSL far better (her hearing range is far better than mine actually, she can hear things I cannot, like small high pitched sounds in the music here and there).

TL/DR - basically, I spent $$$ on equipment that did nothing but burn money, all replaced by a $399 DAC that does it all. I'm also using mono LA90's which are amazing as well.

My question is - is the rest of the audio industry just full of it?


This may be an old thread (came up in search for something else,) but here's one thing I've found - in the past, say 1960s through maybe the early 2000s, you would have no hope of re-creating true 'hi-fi' sound at consumer prices. It was barely possible to get close, because the technology components were generally more expensive and were not mass-produced in the quantities they are now.

Everything- engineering, components, distribution, cost more back then, so you had to spend a lot to even get into the 'good' realm.

Now, we have Asian manufacturers using Texas Instruments and German Infineon chips for example to create truly great, inexpensive amplifiers and DACS (not speakers yet! :) ) and we can get into the hi-fi realm for little money, now. That extra $2K get's you another 2% performance, maybe, where in decades past it would get you a device that maybe sounded twice as good.

So I think the high-end audio realm still has incredible stuff, it's just not going to bring you any great gains any more over the good-enough stuff.
 
It's 'perceived quality' that matters.
Given all other things being equal, I would agree with that statement. Well, not always though . I mean, maybe for a car, or an audio equipment or furniture, but less so for an industrial washer or a lighting pole. I don't think people procure industrial washers or lighting poles on perceived quality alone, but I might be wrong. Also for space equipment as well. I doubt they chose components for Mars Rover based on perceived quality only. But for consumer products, sure. However in order to have a perception of high quality, you should also have a metric of some sort. Does not need to be objective metric of course, doesn't need to be conscious even, but a metric nonetheless is needed to be able to discern high quality from low quality. And no shame if those metrics are "non-technical" as well - I'd imagine that's how majority of people make purchase decisions for, well everything that is not a piece of clothing probably. For more involved consumers however, I think it is also fair not to take the seller on their word but ask questions, demanding the seller to quantify their quality . So overall, I'd say I agree, It is the perceived quality that matters, except when the perception is incorrect, then it does not.
 
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