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Is SINAD important? - "Myths" about measurements! [Video YT]

There are two big reasons to use SINAD: It is so super simple and it is easy to compute!
But otherwise I am not convinced to use SINAD as a ranking number for SQ. [I use it as some kind of safety number to be below the threshold of audibility.]

For ranking the performance I would like to include linear (FR) deviations, harmonic (and other non-linear) distortion and noise.
And these aspects would have to be weighted according to audibility.

Linear deviation (FR) becomes audible around 0.1dB or 1% of amplitude. But this depends on the frequency range and maybe weighting with ERB-scale can account for this. [And there is of course the width of the deviation.]

Harmonic distortion becomes audible around 0,1% (-60dB), but this depends on frequency and number (frequency) of the harmonic products. So we would need some kind of two-parameter weighting at least. Level dependency might have to be taken into account, too. I do not know of any robust science on that.
[Just weighing the harmonic products by Fletcher-Munson might be a first guess, but there is masking, which is more complicated.]
Other non-linear distortion (IMD) is important too, but it seems to be rather closely correlated to HD for almost all electronics (and speakers?)

Noise will become audible around 0,01% (-80dB), but again this depends on noise spectrum. Fletcher-Munson (A-weighting) seems to be the obvious choice.

All this are only ballpark numbers and depend on program and use case.
This kind of weighted sum would be a better choice in my point of view.

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But now it is not so simple anymore, and there is no consensus, of course.

And the question is, how important is it anyways? In electronics it is not a big problem to stay below audibility (unless using tubes) and in speakers SINAD is not the number used at all.

Doesn't work any better than Sinad.

You could have average but inaudible measures across the range that might result in a worse score than a device with all excellent measurements but where one is so poor it is audible.

And SINAD has pretty good correllation with other measures (typically good sinad indicates that other measures will be good)


As a general score it works well.
 
You could have average but inaudible measures across the range that might result in a worse score than a device with all excellent measurements but where one is so poor it is audible.
Then your weighing obviously would be off big time.
And SINAD has pretty good correllation with other measures (typically good sinad indicates that other measures will be good)
Maybe or not. High frequency FR (i.e.of class D amp) does not correlate with SINAD but is well audible.
 
Then your weighing obviously would be off big time.

Weighting won't help. Because different aspects (noise, distortion, FR etc) don't add up to make audibility. They are all independently audible or not. Even different types of distortion.
 
My opinion is that SINAD is worth to look at. But it cannot be the only measurment for quality measure. And it makes for me no sense to compare amplifiers down to 0.001 % THD because what cannot be perceived it then does not account. For me 0.01 and even 0.1 is sufficent. There is no correlation to sound changes between these two numbers. So ranking can be done but sometimes worthless.
 
Which is fine - but falls into the category of "no shit Sherlock"

In other words, no-one who understands the measurements done here has ever claimed that it will. His amazing message is a message already well understood and explained over and over again to people who come and ask.

That is why we have all the other measurements.
True but his video is for a slightly different audience and can reach many people, some of who might not be aware of forums like ASR. I only see the provided info as a positive contribution for anyone interested in the subject or interested to learn a bit more.
 
From what little I watched would not rely on ole Cameron's opinion of any headphone unless he gets a proper haircut. ;)

He cannot possibly get an even fitment with hair that is so lopsided. SINAD is less of an issue here than excess BEDHEAD. :D
 
I don't think they or anyone criticises ASR of using just SINAD which Amir correctly doesn't but the problem of less experiences viewers who concentrate on such single metric like also the Harman score on loudspeakers. This slide of the presentation shows the main points which are well stated, valid and proven:

Is SINAD important_ - Myths about measurements! 4-34 screenshot.png
 
Yep that slide does say that and what is stated is very true.
There are misconceptions and myths also about measurements.

It's more about how it is explained/expanded upon ... ;)
I wonder who (or what website) it is that 'ranks' on a single number metric ? :eek:
 
I don't think they or anyone criticises ASR of using just SINAD which Amir correctly doesn't but the problem of less experiences viewers who concentrate on such single metric like also the Harman score on loudspeakers. This slide of the presentation shows the main points which are well stated, valid and proven:

View attachment 419112

I know more than one good presenter that could take a slide like this and give a nice, effective 15-minute talk.

Joking aside on his haircut, tldr comes into play as the video is 45 minutes to make a point that could readily be done in 15 minutes or less. The clickbait title turns me off and, if the target audience is the less technically astute, would be back to the length as he will lose them early on. His pick of a low SINAD is a poor comparison argument and his own position on objectivity vs subjectivity is muddled.

His argument about frequency response is that target curves do not apply to all possible people is weak. Just because there are variations in conditions does not mean we should not have an ideal target with the caveat that you can only compare tests done by the same test setup. A better approach in my opinion is to use the target and then suggest how the product might be customized for individual preference. Furthermore, his argument that tube amps still exist because of audible preferences is a gross oversimplification and does not help bolster his credibility.

All said, I did grind through his video, and he has some good points, but what could be a great presentation falls short due to a lack of clear, consistent arguments. Everyone is biased, but what differentiates the more credible from the less credible is how objective one tries to be. The title is clickbait AND would more accurately be "Why I do not like ASR's equipment reviews." As more ASR headphone reviews compete with his, this seems more like pot-shotting at Amir's approach. Harder to claim upper ground when there are clear motives for him to try to poke holes in Amir's reviews
 
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The title is clickbait AND would more accurately be "Why I do not like ASR's equipment reviews." As more ASR headphone reviews compete with his, this seems more like pot-shotting at Amir's approach. Harder to claim upper ground when there are clear motives for him to try to poke holes in Amir's reviews

With all due respect, I don't think that's fair to say or objective at all. Nothing in the video suggests this, so there is nothing to defend against.

Comments under the video can be dismissed, but also got me thinking: I've never seen anyone say "L7labs are going to have a fit over this" or "Erin is going to be mad lol" as they do for ASR. Why is that? What are they doing differently than ASR? Is that just because ASR is bigger and automatically has more haters or is it something else? Can we be more inviting and lenient to new members or subjective takes? Do we want to?
 
With all due respect, I don't think that's fair to say or objective at all. Nothing in the video suggests this, so there is nothing to defend against.

Are you sure? I recall at least 2 direct ASR references in his video and the single Harman target curve critique comes later and seemed a pretty obvious (if indirect) ASR reference.

Comments under the video can be dismissed, but also got me thinking: I've never seen anyone say "L7labs are going to have a fit over this" or "Erin is going to be mad lol" as they do for ASR. Why is that? What are they doing differently than ASR? Is that just because ASR is bigger and automatically has more haters or is it something else? Can we be more inviting and lenient to new members or subjective takes? Do we want to?

As with most members am open to subjectivity and some latitude along those lines as long as it is not pushed as though it were equivalent to objective evidence. It is the subjectivist camp that seems to want to paint ASR members as not accepting of subjective opinion.
 
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Why is that? What are they doing differently than ASR?

My guess is it's because Amir has historically gone to other sites or comment threads to argue with people while I think Erin stays in his own lane more. Amir is more opinionated about what ought to be done in the industry.
Is that just because ASR is bigger and automatically has more haters or is it something else?
Size probably equates with haters to an extent also.

Can we be more inviting and lenient to new members or subjective takes? Do we want to?
I think so. I know everyone is sick to death of them, but people tend to be really rude to new people who show up having reinvented some wheel or another.

It takes most people some time to adjust to the idea that redbook is all we need and most commentators online are lying or delusional, being snooty doesn't help the process.

What I would say to the membership at large is, if you don't have the patience to explain why someone is wrong *kindly* then just leave it alone. Catch more flies with honey, etc.
 
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That's usually what those gimmicks do. They don't affect distortion nor FR so that won't show up but might in stereo separation tests or tests with different signals for L and R.

If the mealymouthed huckster is acting to form again, the critiques should go in his Youtube comments so the credulous who dote on his videos will at least ,maybe, see them and ponder.

I think we here already know what he's up to.
 
Could not make it past 19 minutes as I just cannot stand the accent but I think the TL;DR (TL;DW) of the video is that a pretentious headphone salesman really, really wants you to like the Susvara (or really, really wants you to understand why you should not hate it and other "summit-fi" audiophool snake-oil trash just because most of them are proven by measurements to be trash or simply not worth the price)...
 
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