Is SINAD important? - "Myths" about measurements! [Video YT]

[killdozzer]

What would be the point? You derided the video without even watching it. Clearly you're not interested in an honest discussion.

And FYI,

^ this is cheap trolling. Good job setting the tone, 'moderator'.

Dude, I can't even believe you said this. What's wrong with you?

 

[killdozzer]

I read a couple of pages of this, I can't say for certain that this point hasn't been made, but I also appreciate good numbers as a evidence of skill and good work.

Your local Church doesn't really NEED Caravaggio, your tiles don't really NEED to be evenly laid, it's not like your walking will be compromised etc. BUT!!!! I would always pick for myself AND recommend to others those who are more skillful.

So, even between two inaudible SINAD's, I'd pick the "more inaudible" one whenever I can. I value people's gift, craftsmanship, knowledge.

 

[Somafunk]

Blacker black!

That and "darker background".

I have never figured out what "dark background" really means... relating to equipment changes.

My system noise is graded as being of vanta black, its a right pain in the arse when the lights are off as I can't bloody find it.

 

[melomane13]

SINAD is misleading, because it is the combined result of noise and distortion.

SINAD = 60 (for the whole dac and amplifier chain) is ok if it is dominated by distortion...

 

[solderdude]

A question could then be at which level that combined SINAD is determined.
Another question could be that noise levels may be -80dB and THD (at 1kHz which is easiest for electronics and no guarantee it isn't higher at low or higher frequencies) and distortion would dominate -61dB could well mean 60 SINAD even if dominated by distortion could not be enough.
Also 60 SINAD (with incredibly low noise) but the distortion being higher order and thus not masked might still be too low.

All that is clear is that with higher numbers (say an arbitrary 100 SINAD) distortion and noise are low enough not to be a problem but frequency response still could be or not enough power for an amp or not enough gain or too low output voltage or very high sensitivity transducers combined with digital volume control.

SINAD also is not really an indicator for good engineering either as a device may measure well but break down or have problems or issues in other areas.
SINAD only says something about noise and distortion at 1kHz at a specified level. An indicator for signal fidelity. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[sonitus mirus]

A question could then be at which level that combined SINAD is determined.
Another question could be that noise levels may be -80dB and THD (at 1kHz which is easiest for electronics and no guarantee it isn't higher at low or higher frequencies) and distortion would dominate -61dB could well mean 60 SINAD even if dominated by distortion could not be enough.
Also 60 SINAD (with incredibly low noise) but the distortion being higher order and thus not masked might still be too low.

All that is clear is that with higher numbers (say an arbitrary 100 SINAD) distortion and noise are low enough not to be a problem but frequency response still could be or not enough power for an amp or not enough gain or too low output voltage or very high sensitivity transducers combined with digital volume control.

SINAD also is not really an indicator for good engineering either as a device may measure well but break down or have problems or issues in other areas.
SINAD only says something about noise and distortion at 1kHz at a specified level. An indicator for signal fidelity. Nothing more nothing less.

SINAD might not reveal everything about how well a device is engineered, but it does point to a well-designed product and indicates that the people making the device possess the necessary equipment and knowledge to identify what constitutes good sound quality. You can't stumble upon Topping-like numbers from luck and subjective listening. And any boutique device that costs thousands has no excuse to have deplorable results, in my opinion.

 

[NTK]

A question could then be at which level that combined SINAD is determined.
Another question could be that noise levels may be -80dB and THD (at 1kHz which is easiest for electronics and no guarantee it isn't higher at low or higher frequencies) and distortion would dominate -61dB could well mean 60 SINAD even if dominated by distortion could not be enough.
Also 60 SINAD (with incredibly low noise) but the distortion being higher order and thus not masked might still be too low.

All that is clear is that with higher numbers (say an arbitrary 100 SINAD) distortion and noise are low enough not to be a problem but frequency response still could be or not enough power for an amp or not enough gain or too low output voltage or very high sensitivity transducers combined with digital volume control.

SINAD also is not really an indicator for good engineering either as a device may measure well but break down or have problems or issues in other areas.
SINAD only says something about noise and distortion at 1kHz at a specified level. An indicator for signal fidelity. Nothing more nothing less.

A good SINAD number is a necessary but not sufficient indicator of good engineering.

Necessity and sufficiency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[solderdude]

A good SINAD number is a necessary but not sufficient indicator of good engineering.

Necessity and sufficiency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Exactly my point.

Take the Topping L30 for instance. Great specs, great performance, good circuit design, good component choice and certainly not poor, but also not great, engineering and took a redesign to get it right. (like so many products b.t.w.)
The L30-II version .. no complaints about that one.
PA5... same thing.
IMHO such devices are released too soon and/or not tested all to rigorously.

That's the problem with engineering.... The circuit design can be great, component choice or practical application can be lacking.
To me great engineering not only performs (measures well) in all aspects (not just SINAD) but also is well built and durable with a low failure rate.

In all fairness... All of that is really hard to test for. All that can be done is measure it, test it to its limits. How it holds out in time is a lot harder to test.
And even then... something can be well engineered but a component manufacturer or the purchasing of parts may well slip and cause high failure rates even when the engineering was great.

That's how complicated real life is... this is not gauged in SINAD nor is SINAD an indicator of proper engineering and assembly. And this is what one buys. A product that measures well on a test bench.

What SINAD can show is good signal fidelity (of 1kHz sine wave) which is an indicator for good circuit design and suggests good engineering but it may still be lacking in proper engineering.

 

[amirm]

Take the Topping L30 for instance. Great specs, great performance, good circuit design, good component choice and certainly not poor, but also not great, engineering and took a redesign to get it right. (like so many products b.t.w.)

That is orthogonal to mission and purpose of my reviews. I only test for performance, not reliability, design unrelated to performance, etc. Those factors by definition cannot enter its performance rating. A Porsche is very fast and handles great. That it is also unreliable doesn't stop auto reviewers from giving high marks for its great "engineering."

 

[amirm]

The power of SINAD is that with one figure, we can have high confidence of whether the company cared to keep distortion and noise to a minimum. That is why it has risen in fame and usefulness.

 

[boxerfan88]

A good SINAD number is a necessary but not sufficient indicator of good engineering.

Necessity and sufficiency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bullseye! Fully agree.

 

[Holmz]

The power of SINAD is that with one figure, we can have high confidence of whether the company cared to keep distortion and noise to a minimum. That is why it has risen in fame and usefulness.

In the case of the Toppng products, the bitter taste of the reliability seemed last a lot longer than the sweetness of the SINAD.

The term “forum-boner” seems apropos, as they flew off the shelves of the distributors based almost solely on SINAD.
However the science of reliability was lacking.

SINAD is a decent metric as long as the device works though.

 

[amirm]

The term “forum-boner” seems apropos, as they flew off the shelves of the distributors based almost solely on SINAD.
However the science of reliability was lacking.

Topping makes a ton of reliable products so they continue to sell at brisk rate. Companies make mistakes/have unknown reliability issues no matter if they are Apple, Sony or Topping.

And it is not just SINAD: Topping aces all metrics across the board because they care about performance. The meticulously measure and optimize sources of noise and distortion. While many other companies are whistling Dixie with likely their own set of reliability issues.

SINAD needs to be understood as a figure of merit rather an excuse to complain about companies products or the review here. Whatever issues you have with companies and products is outside of the scope of their achievements on audio hygiene and my testing of the same.

 

[amirm]

Yeah it's just that he seems so very reluctant which I don't understand why.

Reluctant about what? Putting silly disclaimers in reviews? Where are those disclaimers in other people's reviews? I have for long put disclaimers in reviews, with net result being cluttering them to no good effect. I have done tutorials which talk about all aspects of the review and that is that. I am not writing a legal agreement to have 12 page fine print on them.

 

[JSmith]

SINAD is misleading, because it is the combined result of noise and distortion.

SINAD is not misleading... if one looks properly at the FFT.

SINAD = 60 (for the whole dac and amplifier chain) is ok if it is dominated by distortion...

It's not ok really in regards to good engineering and hi-fi... but does mean there is little noise yes.


JSmith

 

[JustJones]

I am not writing a legal agreement to have 12 page fine print on them.

LoL, you'll sound like one of those drug commercials on TV.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Topping makes a ton of reliable products so they continue to sell at brisk rate. Companies make mistakes/have unknown reliability issues no matter if they are Apple, Sony or Topping.

And it is not just SINAD: Topping aces all metrics across the board because they care about performance. The meticulously measure and optimize sources of noise and distortion. While many other companies are whistling Dixie with likely their own set of reliability issues.

SINAD needs to be understood as a figure of merit rather an excuse to complain about companies products or the review here. Whatever issues you have with companies and products is outside of the scope of their achievements on audio hygiene and my testing of the same.

You mention that SINAD needs to be understood.
How do you feel about its current perception? Do you think people generally understand it, or do you find that it’s often misunderstood?

From my experience participating in various forums, I’ve noticed that SINAD is misunderstood quite frequently -by both subjective and objective enthusiasts alike.

If the goal is to educate people and encourage a focus on science and data, a colored tiered chart might not be the ideal approach. That said, if the aim is to spark discussion and generate interest in ASR, it does seem to be quite effective.

IMO.

 

[amirm]

You mention that SINAD needs to be understood.
How do you feel about its current perception?

It is a force to reckon with. SINAD has, single-handedly managed to transform the industry to care about noise and distortion once again. It has benefited us all in the way it has shown that excellence in audio fidelity need not be expensive or come from some name brand.

Like any transformation, there are laggards and people who want to defend the old turf. It doesn't bother me none.

Every movement needs its mascot. And ours is SINAD. Wear it with pride and stop complaining about it.

 

[JSmith]

ours is SINAD. Wear it with pride

Hear hear.

I must say, I do like to start the day with a hot cup of SINAD whilst catching up on new ASR posts.

JSmith

 

[Mort]

Every movement needs its mascot. And ours is SINAD. Wear it with pride and stop complaining about it.

Is that science? I'm not supporting any side here, I have no dog in this race. I admire the S in ASR.