Is SINAD important? - "Myths" about measurements! [Video YT]

[Multicore]

I often find it is mistaken with disclosure. Maybe that one would be better?

Mibby. Idk. Might be better to move on to specific proposals at this point, if that's what people want. Amir includes a video "Understanding Speaker Measurements" in the boilerplate for his speaker reviews. Do people want something like that but for DACs and AMPs and so on?

As I already hinted, if something more specific like "SINAD isn't a metric of SQ" is proposed then I'm not in favor because that's a reaction to a reaction to ASR. Rather positive education than refuting false accusations.

 

[JustJones]

Mibby. Idk. Might be better to move on to specific proposals at this point, if that's what people want. Amir includes a video "Understanding Speaker Measurements" in the boilerplate for his speaker reviews. Do people want something like that but for DACs and AMPs and so on?

As I already hinted, if something more specific like "SINAD isn't a metric of SQ" is proposed then I'm not in favor because that's a reaction to a reaction to ASR. Rather positive education than refuting false accusations.

I've been seeing this in DAC and Streamer with a DAC reviews.

If you are not familiar with measurements that are about to follow, please watch my tutorial:

 

[Multicore]

I've been seeing this in DAC and Streamer with a DAC reviews.

If you are not familiar with measurements that are about to follow, please watch my tutorial:

Well, there you go! I had forgotten about that one. Who could ask for anything more?

Disclaimers, disclosures, apologies, acknowledgments, pledges, ... What remediation do these people want? Please be specific. For example, a draft proposal that we may consider.

 

[ahofer]

As I already hinted, if something more specific like "SINAD isn't a metric of SQ" is proposed then I'm not in favor because that's a reaction to a reaction to ASR. Rather positive education than refuting false accusations.

Precisely

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

There is a part of all of us here that respects and admires quality engineering even if inaudible.

I like that my MiniDsp has higher sinad than my Denon AVR. I'm using MiniDsp primarily because of features, but I still like the engineering. Is the same reason people buy cars that go speeds they will never experience.

Some are willing to pay for it. We do this all the time with other goods - buying higher quality that we can appreciate or use.

It might be wasteful, but it's a matter of choice.

Appreciation of quality, aesthetics, etc may definitely be important factors to an individual.
As an E.E. I appreciate the intricate details of mechanical watches.
But I rely on my Apple watch to tell accurate(ish) time!

 

[amirm]

What is the research to back the current limits of SINAD colours and ratings from very good to poor?

You sure you want to complain about that?

 

[thewas]

You sure you want to complain about that?

Is that a threat or what do you want to say with that question? By the way its not really a complaint but a way to show the discrepancy between asking for scientific waterproof limits for audibility and on the other side obviously having no problem of defining some arbitrary quality limits without such.

 

[markanini]

Availability of data is good. Arbitrary audibility thresholds are bad. But not as bad as lack of data.

I'd say discussion about audibility thresholds are a good thing to have. And it make sense as a point of scientific consistency and also as an acknowledgement to utility. Some might romanticize exceptional metrics, and are willing to jump through hoops for exceptional metrics. But is that how you should treat audio gear that's meant to serve the users needs? An optimal feature set can certainly be worth having less SINAD within acceptable ranges. Even more so for mobile and battery-powered operation.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Price range, SINAD, and features are all I need to figure out what I want to include in my purchase options. After that, I might delve into some subjectivity from specific people I trust, but I would comfortably take the risk of eating a typical 15% restocking fee if something did not work out, especially for a DAC or amplifier, for goodness sake. A DAC or amp?

 

[amirm]

Is that a threat or what do you want to say with that question? By the way its not really a complaint but a way to show the discrepancy between asking for scientific waterproof limits for audibility and on the other side obviously having no problem of defining some arbitrary quality limits without such.

It was a question because the reason for dividing it into four buckets came from membership, precisely to keep people away from worrying about small SINAD differences. Now you question me on why we did that? Either you are in favor of broad categories of SINAD or specific values.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

In tiered rankings, small differences can often influence which tier a product is placed in, which might actually unintentionally encourage focus on minor SINAD variations.

I believe the chart could be more effective without tiers. Simply displaying SINAD values with dividers based on audibility thresholds -like "strict threshold" and "lenient threshold" -and avoiding color coding might better align with the goal of minimizing concern over small differences. If that's the goal.

 

[amirm]

In tiered rankings, small differences can often influence which tier a product is placed in, which might actually unintentionally encourage focus on minor SINAD variations.

You guys must think a bunch of idiots read my reviews. That you can tell a SINAD is at the border of two ranges but they can't! So you set out to save these people, lest they go to audiophile hell when they pass....

 

[amirm]

I believe the chart could be more effective without tiers. Simply displaying SINAD values with dividers based on audibility thresholds -like "strict threshold" and "lenient threshold" -and avoiding color coding might better align with the goal of minimizing concern over small differences. If that's the goal.

There is only one certainty: if SINAD is better that 115 dB, it guarantees transparency. Anything lower lacks proof of transparency. You can buy an $89 DAC with such level of transparency. Little reason to settle for less.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

You guys must think a bunch of idiots read my reviews. That you can tell a SINAD is at the border of two ranges but they can't! So you set out to save these people, lest they go to audiophile hell when they pass....

Absolutely not.
What an inappropriate comment.

There is only one certainty: if SINAD is better that 115 dB, it guarantees transparency. Anything lower lacks proof of transparency. You can buy an $89 DAC with such level of transparency. Little reason to settle for less.

I recall seeing a comment or watching one of your videos where the "strict" and "lenient" threshold markers were discussed. That's why I mentioned them in this context, as I thought they would be relevant.

I believe the color-coded tiers are what some people misinterpret -either intentionally, to undermine objectivity, or unintentionally, due to a lack of knowledge.

 

[boxerfan88]

In tiered rankings, small differences can often influence which tier a product is placed in, which might actually unintentionally encourage focus on minor SINAD variations.

I believe the chart could be more effective without tiers. Simply displaying SINAD values with dividers based on audibility thresholds -like "strict threshold" and "lenient threshold" -and avoiding color coding might better align with the goal of minimizing concern over small differences. If that's the goal.

Good idea.
Currently, devices with same SINAD figure do straddle two different color categories as I have posted earlier. Didn't even bother to round up/down before categorizing.

 

[amirm]

Absolutely not.

Then quit saying people are confused when one device has a SINAD of 99 and another 100 because they are two different colors. You are solving nothing with your suggestions and constant complaining across topics.

 

[Randyman...]

USA Today reviews?

Just look at the data/numbers if the colors are distracting or if it is not clear that a 5-point difference within a defined range is still the same deviation as a 5-point difference across two color ranges - big whoop. Amir does a fine job and all data is presented for the reader to digest.

Would you spend 2x if one DAC was at the top of the yellow and the next 2x expensive was at the bottom of the green? Any different if they are next to each other in the same color range? If ranges are to be defined - then quantified brackets will result.

 

[amirm]

I believe the color-coded tiers are what some people misinterpret -either intentionally, to undermine objectivity, or unintentionally, due to a lack of knowledge.

Your belief is in conflict with your own argument as I explained to @thewas. Once more, the categorization, as shown in colors, is to get people to think about four broad categories of ratings here, rather than individual values. It was a solution that was created based on consensus from me and membership. You have made no logical or rational argument to change it, on top of it being totally inconsistent with your own position.

 

[markanini]

You guys must think a bunch of idiots read my reviews. That you can tell a SINAD is at the border of two ranges but they can't! So you set out to save these people, lest they go to audiophile hell when they pass....

Unfortunately, I know this, and there's no saving stupidity like that. At best you can help those who are still willing to learn.

 

[Holmz]

Then quit saying people are confused when one device has a SINAD of 99 and another 100 because they are two different colors. You are solving nothing with your suggestions and constant complaining across topics.

Maybe we need to use 50 shades of grey?