Is room modes inevitable for an smaller room without heavy room treatment?

[PristineSound]

So what did you do? Sounds like what you're saying is that you have found a solution where at lower levels, you are not bothered by the room modes, which is nice. They're still there all the same.



I am not sure your question makes much more sense by adding "practical" to the sentence. The answer is still no. I for one still don't quite understand what you're asking for. You're at the same time saying you understand you can't get rid of room modes, but you are still asking how you can get rid of room modes. It would be helpful if you tried to elaborate or rephrase what you are trying to figure out.

You actually already answered the question on post 21 but Amir provided the scientific explanation. And after reading the simple and elegant explanation, I feel stupid because the science is obvious. But sometimes, obvious is what you miss.

The Internet does get a bit annoying when back and forth happens, so I'll just say this is the "practical" that I'm referring to but perhaps unsuccessfully articulate myself. By using speaker positioning and listening positioning, one can reduce the room modes such that in a practical scenario of listening, you have reduced the room mode to the point that it's not bothersome.

Now that Amir got me thinking, this also may imply that such positioning may result in a non equilateral triangle, possibly affecting imaging.

 

[PristineSound]

Since bass is mostly mono in stereo music, you can place your speakers width-wise to cancel those modes. This is from an old presentation by Dr. Toole:
View attachment 511403

For length dimension, your seating position can be varied to reduce peaks and dips (although latter is more important).

Man, I feel real stupid right now. The science is obvious, and I've been doing positional EQ for ever, why did I not put one and one together and connect the dots.

Not only that, I have achieved this already with positional EQ, but when I crank up the SPL, it activates room modes. Others here are saying SPL does add new room modes, which makes scientific sense. So I wonder if there is an explanation to why I hear room modes when I crank up the SPL and is there a way to remedy it (without extreme room treatment, subs and DSP).

 

[kharan]

Do sofas, armchairs with foam, guest beds, beanbag chair and ottomans count as velocity absorbers? It's possible that the effect of room nodes is reduced by furniture. But there's little to no predictability.

Otherwise, if you can afford them, PSI AVAA are small, easily hidden, and effective.

 

[Imakeller]

Now that Amir got me thinking, this also may imply that such positioning may result in a non equilateral triangle, possibly affecting imaging.

I believe Amir’s reply implied flexibility in positioning of SUBS to tame room bass modes. If I understood your previous post correctly, your room in question will have no subs and no room EQ/DSP. The positional attenuation will still work with a full-range speaker, but proper placement of localizable speakers is much more prescriptive than subwoofers, so improperly placed speakers addressing room modes may well bring other issues like off imaging.

 

[PristineSound]

Do sofas, armchairs with foam, guest beds, beanbag chair and ottomans count as velocity absorbers? It's possible that the effect of room nodes is reduced by furniture. But there's little to no predictability.

Otherwise, if you can afford them, PSI AVAA are small, easily hidden, and effective.

They do, but not leather chairs though. But they aren't effective absorbing bass energy, no domestic furniture is good at absorbing bass energy. In fact, nothing practical is good at absorbing deep bass energy.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Now that Amir got me thinking, this also may imply that such positioning may result in a non equilateral triangle, possibly affecting imaging.

This is the exact reason our systems are built from the ground up to rely on subwoofers. Since the correct placement for great imaging often are not the correct placement for the best bass. So having everything in one box makes it more difficult to get the best possible sound.

 

[PristineSound]

This is the exact reason our systems are built from the ground up to rely on subwoofers.-Since the correct placement for great imaging often are not the correct placement for the best bass. So having everything in one box makes it more difficult to get the best possible sound.

I completely agree.

I have my main system in my basement, with it, dual subs, 6 inch bass traps in the rear wall and DIRAC. Zero room modes to my ears and in the "practical" listening scenario.

In this secondary room upstairs, subs and panels aren't feasible and I don't want to spend anymore money on DSP. I am surprisingly near my end state, I don't believe I will be making anymore major purchases any time soon.

 

[Chromatischism]

Do sofas, armchairs with foam, guest beds, beanbag chair and ottomans count as velocity absorbers? It's possible that the effect of room nodes is reduced by furniture. But there's little to no predictability.

Yup.

Believe it or not, even hard surfaces affect bass. When I added my computer desk behind the recliners, my modal behavior changed a bit. It wasn't absorption, but reflection.

 

[kemmler3D]

They do, but not leather chairs though. But they aren't effective absorbing bass energy, no domestic furniture is good at absorbing bass energy. In fact, nothing practical is good at absorbing deep bass energy.

I don't know what you consider practical, but look into VPR traps. They do need to be large but they don't need to be thick. I have seen DIY jobs with significant absorption at 30hz. It's basically a steel plate glued to a foam backing.

As for not wanting to spend $$ on DSP: there's a thread on how to get PEQ into your system with a $5 raspberry pi device, and if you want a finished product a used WiiM mini is pretty cheap too.

 

[PristineSound]

I don't know what you consider practical, but look into VPR traps. They do need to be large but they don't need to be thick. I have seen DIY jobs with significant absorption at 30hz. It's basically a steel plate glued to a foam backing.

Definitely will check that out.

As for not wanting to spend $$ on DSP: there's a thread on how to get PEQ into your system with a $5 raspberry pi device, and if you want a finished product a used WiiM mini is pretty cheap too.

I use Spotify and foobar, both can do PEQ. Some members are talking about DIRAC.

The other thing I need to do is to measure my room. I have two mics, Neumann and miniDSP, just have gotten around to measuring.

 

[kemmler3D]

Definitely will check that out.


I use Spotify and foobar, both can do PEQ. Some members are talking about DIRAC.

The other thing I need to do is to measure my room. I have two mics, Neumann and miniDSP, just have gotten around to measuring.

Seems like you're not as short on possible solutions as it seems from the first post... Simple PEQ derived from good measurements honestly gets you pretty far in dealing with modes.

 

[Flaesh]

just have gotten around to measuring.

It's interesting to see how SPL activates room modes! Or may be not)