Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Chrispy]

So the same thing for Sealed Subs?

To a great degree yes, if the design is well done both ported and sealed subs can work well "for music" which I assume was what you were referring to? There are poor designs in both areas, tho....

 

[Sancus]

So the same thing for Sealed Subs?

Sealed subs are smaller than ported ones, that's the main benefit. Ported subs have very high group delay around their tuning frequency, so it's best for them to be tuned under 20hz. There's no evidence that there are any audible problems with large, well-engineered ported subs with tuning frequencies below 20hz(eg: JTR). It is potentially possible that smaller ones with 20-30hz tuning frequency could have audible issues. Though granted it is unlikely as discussed on the Audioholics page.

 

[richard12511]

I shall now speculate, COULD it be larger drivers which produce lower frequencies with more effeciency and SPL are harder to integrate and can somewhat 'colour' the audio - if not integrated properly, placement, room eq/modes etc

This is some of it. The lower a sub plays, the more of the room it's going to excite. Those low notes are also slower to develop and slower to die. Those two things are (imo) a big part of the perceived "slowness" of bigger subs. Thing is, it's still better to get the bigger sub and just apply a high pass filter if you want absolute speed, as the distortion and headroom will be vastly greater. I've done this for testing purposes, and it really does make the sub sound subjectively "faster". If I want my big subs to sound like RELs, I can just apply a highpass filter below 30Hz . Now I've got that REL speed, but it's also significantly cleaner, since the big boys are cruising along at less than 1% distortion at those frequencies(no matter the level). While I do see some subjective advantage from doing this, it still sounds so much better when the HPF is turned off. Those super low frequencies add a feeling to the music that's just not present with smaller and less powerful subwoofers.

 

[richard12511]

I would explain away most end user shootouts as unintentional positional EQ (i.e. size of the boxes and positions of the driver) or obvious differences in the raw output and FR of the units being compared.

This is why most of the subwoofer shootouts I've read online are unfortunately (mostly) worthless. It becomes not really a subwoofer shootout, but a subwoofer position shootout. Assuming they can all handle the spl and frequency demands, the sub with the luckiest position will win. I say "mostly" because some of them still give useful info that's not really seen in CEA-2010. An example is about when a ported subwoofer chuffs, and how it sounds when it does.

I've gone back and forth between my JTR and Rythmik subs, and once I equalize the position and response(using Dirac), I can't tell them apart, and I'd be surprised if others could. I don't hear any difference in "speed", despite the JTR being sealed and Rythmik being ported. A good ported design (ime) sounds every bit as "musical".

 

[richard12511]

They still sound different. You see people finding the Arendal and Monoprice subwoofers sounding drier, different to SVS this has been mentioned many times on AVSF who have had both in same room. RELs faster than SVS. Jim Wilson with 20+ years experience with subwoofers found the JL E112 sounding better with music than SVS SB13U etc. which caused almost forum meltdown cause SVS fanboys couldn`t take that, hah. Lots of examples. It would be foolish to only look numbers, but each to their own.

Unless those comparisons were done blind and with equalized frequency response, then "expectation bias" and room placement are the far more likely explanation of the results. 20+ years of experience doesn't matter there.

 

[richard12511]

Sealed subs are smaller than ported ones, that's the main benefit.

Agreed.

Ported subs have very high group delay around their tuning frequency, so it's best for them to be tuned under 20hz. There's no evidence that there are any audible problems with large, well-engineered ported subs with tuning frequencies below 20hz(eg: JTR). It is potentially possible that smaller ones with 20-30hz tuning frequency could have audible issues. Though granted it is unlikely as discussed on the Audioholics page.

Not sure what the tuning frequency of the FV25 is, but I hear 0 speed difference between it and the sealed RS2. My general view is that ported usually gives better performance for the money, though there's obviously still a market for sealed subs.

 

[Sancus]

Not sure what the tuning frequency of the FV25 is, but I hear 0 speed difference between it and the sealed RS2. My general view is that ported usually gives better performance for the money, though there's obviously still a market for sealed subs.

It's 12.5Hz, mentioned on their website, so yeah. I think most Rythmik subs are 12, 16, or 18Hz(depending on model/# ports open). Group delay is really only an issue for the real small ones, like single 12" driver subs are often tuned 20-25Hz and maybe even higher. But I still don't really know if that would produce any audible issues. We're talking about real edge case things here with ports. Chuffing and other weird noises you might get from a small ported sub pushed too hard are probably a bigger issue too. Sealed ones will degrade more gracefully. But I think ported subs as large and powerful as the FV25 are unlikely to ever cause any problem.

For the smaller 12" or less sized stuff I do think there are merits to sealed. Personally I want to stay under ~18" x 18" footprint and I haven't seen any ported subs around that size, certainly none I would trust. Also, I did read somewhere at some point that if you are looking for super low extension, like single digit Hz, large sealed subs can be used to get you there whereas ported subs tuned that low are unusual, and ported sub output drops too fast below tuning frequency to get much extension below it. But I don't know too much about that since loud infrasonics are not something I'm very interested in, lol.

 

[polmuaddib]

As I've already mentioned, I own REL T9i. Actually, two of them.

There are couple of reasons I bought them. First, I bought into their marketing "There are subwoofers and then there is REL" which is a good line, btw.

Then I liked their connection possibilities. You can connect them with stereo system alone, with HT system alone but you can connect with both systems independently and have the manual crossover for stereo system and AVR's crossover for the LFE channel and bass managament. SVS has those similar features, but not a lot of other subs do.

Then, I liked REL's industrial design more then SVS. That visual aspect is important for me and i not ashamed to admit it. Most audiophiles are lying to themselves and others when they say that they only care about the sound quality and not the esthetics.

Now, the only flaw I see with REL T9i is that it there are no balanced inputs, because I have a problem with ground loops. Those high level inputs can help in that department, so for that it is not bad to have it. I would like to see measurements that show that high level input is inferior to line level. I might do it when I find the time. I have them on LFE RCA now only.

As for their low end extension, I have them at 5% volume setting on their knob and -6db in DENON AVR4500H and they are plenty loud and they rumble the room. I don't need more low end. Or maybe I do, but I am anaware of it.

I did consider SVS and still do, if I am to change/upgrade for T9i, but SVS is also very expensive in my country. The cheapest SVS PB-1000 is little more then 600 euros. SVS prices keep rising for better models, and the first model to feature XLR input (which is the only reason if i would upgrade) is SVS-SB4000 which is 2000 euros. And that is the black ash version (not pretty finish). REL has their S/510 with XLR input and 2000 GBP price, but looks beautiful compared to SVS.

Other subs to consider with XLR inputs are Pro Audio subs and their prices are competitive. Dynaudio 9s comes to mind with nice features, balanced inputs and outputs, fair looking, claiming 22hz low end extension, around 900euros, but I have not found any measurements for it.

Finally, I know that SVS has some better measured performance then REL but I am not sure if it contibutes much more in the whole experience. I don't believe anymore in REL's marketing claims, but knowing more now about subs (still not enough and still learning more everyday, here on ASR), I am not sure I would choose SVS over REL... but i might change my mind.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

... First, I bought into their marketing "There are subwoofers and then there is REL" which is a good line, btw. ...

There are x and then there is us is a marketing line as old as the hills, to borrow another well-worn cliché. Successful old marketing lines are continually reused as long as customers continue to buy into the sales pitch. Backing up marketing claims with factual data is a separate issue.

 

[mansr]

I recently replaced a REL (photos in another thread) with an SVS. It's quite possibly my imagination, but I sure have the impression that music sounds better now.

 

[Chrise36]

Subwoofers do sound different. A driver with high Qts will sound drier than the one with low Qts. The same with the Fs. If a driver has an fs of 35hz it wil not go down at 20hz. The driver that needs 70l of volume will not play the same at 20l. A 4th order bandpass will not play the same as a sealed one.A sub with dsp will have higher latency than a diy sub with no filters at all.

 

[mansr]

A sub with dsp will have higher latency than a diy sub with no filters at all.

Hmm. According to some quick measurements I took, the new SVS (with DSP) has much lower delay than the REL (without).

 

[Chrise36]

Hmm. According to some quick measurements I took, the new SVS (with DSP) has much lower delay than the REL (without).

The REL has filters too these are analog.

 

[mansr]

The REL has filters too these are analog.

Yes, and they are terrible in comparison.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

One factor that I haven't seen referenced in the REL vs SVS (or others) conversation is physical size. Living in an apartment, my speakers are Focal Aria 906 and size is at a premium (especially since I want to use dual subs). Size both in regard to floor-space for placement, but also in regard to the room's acoustic dimensions.

The REL 5/Ti comes in at: 10.5 (W) x 12.5 (H) x 12.7 in. (D) (267 x 317 x 322 mm) | 8" woofer
The smallest SVS seems to be: 13.0" (W) x 13.5" (H) x 14.8" (D) | 12" woofer

Apart from physical constraints (SVS is just too large), does the pairing of subwoofer size matter when talking about "seamless musicality"? For example, is it better to pair the Focal's 6.5" speaker size with an 8" woofer? Or should a 12" woofer pair just as well (or better), even though it is a massive jump in speaker surface area? To be clear: context is music only (e.g, bass, piano, drums), not HT movie LFE effects.

Note: I also have another concern, which is sound propagation to the other apartment units; so excessive deep bass also is something I worry about. That is, I really do not want much bass below what is needed for natural sounding music.

 

[Sancus]

The smallest SVS seems to be: 13.0" (W) x 13.5" (H) x 14.8" (D) | 12" woofer

The smallest SVS is the 3000 Micro at 11.7” (W) X 10.9” (H) X 10.7” (D).

E: Also, see Kef KC62 etc.

Apart from physical constraints (SVS is just too large), does the pairing of subwoofer size matter when talking about "seamless musicality"? For example, is it better to pair the Focal's 6.5" speaker size with an 8" woofer? Or should a 12" woofer pair just as well (or better), even though it is a massive jump in speaker surface area? To be clear: context is music only (e.g, bass, piano, drums), not HT movie LFE effects.

No, doesn't really matter, what matters is that the crossover is done properly and the combined response is EQed.

 

[sfdoddsy]

Bass is the simplest thing in the audio chain to get right. You simply need to displace air without too much distortion. That means big boxes and drivers, or small boxes, big amps and EQ.

The smaller REL subs can’t do this. Neither can the smaller SVS subs. The smaller Rythmiks can, but at lower levels.
Given the length of sub 80hz waves there is no such thing as fast bass.

 

[Objectivist01]

I think if audiophools are claiming it, then it might be some sort of distortion in measurement whihc they are thinking to be musical. Rel needs to be on a test bench soon

 

[Spkrdctr]

So, then it sounds like if someone (gasp) isn't going to do room correction/measurement and (double gasp) doesn't care as much about output and extension then the REL subs are a good option.

You said that not me! But you could be right.

 

[Spkrdctr]

So the same thing for Sealed Subs?

I'm going to "my opinion". I say yes. But it is only my opinion as subs are sold on personal preference in the high end prices. I personally like Rythmik or SVS subs. Servo subs are very nice but usually more expensive. If Rythmik could add all of the control features that SVS has to their Rythmik servo subs, they would be probably the best on the market, period. Of course the price would go up some but they would be truly amazing subs.