Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Sal1950]

Let's chill out a bit guys.
Just remember, you can't change the laws of physics,
A single 8" woofer can only move so much air.
It doesn't matter who makes it or how much magic dust gets sprinkled on it.

 

[FrantzM]

The reason REL subwoofers are considered "musical" has probably more to do with how easy they are to integrate with the rest of the system. It's not the hardware that is musical (if that's really necessary to point out?)

A good subwoofer integration, no matter how it's done, will always sound "musical".

There is nothing in REL subwoofers that make them inherently easier to integrate. OTOH, SVS subwoofers provide some tool that could help the integration process.
REL success in the market is due to good marketing, aided by the falsities of the High End Audio press. They are thoroughly surpassed in term of measurable performance by the usual suspects (SVS, HSU, Monoprice, Rythmik, etc) and many others. They are overpriced. Don't fall for the marketing BS that says that using the speaker signal makes them more musical or easier to integrate : it is utter BS. Provable. The reference when it comes to subwoofers Sweetchaos Subwoofer Comparison .

I hasten to add that subwoofer integration to main is not impossible, it remains difficult. It requires lot of measurements and, reiterations. Another added complexity to the process of integration, is that the better results are obtained with multiple (as in more than one) subwoofers which increase, manyfold, the difficulty of integration. To make things even more complicated, the DRC/DSP/EQ in many AVR do not do the greatest job when it comes to integrating subwoofer and mains. Audyssey, for example, requires manual adjustment (At least for me and from reading fora, most people), DIRAC with all the good will and great buzz does not either; unless you count the rarely if ever present DLBC, which is an add-on, not part of the usual DIRAC. Many audiophiles use an external DSP/EQ component, one of the often used is the miniDSP 2x4 HD. And, yes, it takes time to make this work, and patience, and determination, and research... Good integration of mains and subwoofer (singular or plural) , mandates the use of a measurement microphone such as the UMik-1 and software such as REW and/or MSO. The last two would never win a contest for ease of use, let alone to master. MSO in particular is powerful for multiple subwoofers integration, but it takes some (a long?) time to get the hang of it... Let's go ahead and call it "difficult" . And you still need to have a good grasp and understanding of REW to achieve good results with MSO ... So .. No! Subwoofer integration is not easy. I would go as far as declaring that, optimal results are rarely achieved by most.
It is also safe to say that it is impossible to achieve great subwoofer integration with mains without DSP and EQ.

The above holds for any subwoofer.. REL included.

Peace.

 

[Sal1950]

It is also safe to say that it is impossible to achieve great subwoofer integration with mains without DSP and EQ.

Awe come on Frantz, it ain't all that hard. LOL

 

[Jake Cushing]

I reckon the REL dislikers on ASR might struggle to choose the best sub in a blind test between an SVS sub and an equivalently specced REL sub, when both subs are integrated correctly.

I don't believe there is a REL sub the same footprint as the SVS SB-1000 which will deliver the same performance, or anywhere close. Regardless of price.

Deflecting the criticism onto me (the forum poster) doesn't really change the critique of the subwoofer brand though. I take full responsibility for my mistake. You can see in my original post that I had said "I dearly wish I had read this thread".

You are right though in saying the upper REL's perform probably as well as the lower SVS. But they will be bigger as well as significantly more expensive. The T5x is extremely popular, and this vastly popular model is overpriced and underperforms. Great for REL and their profits, not so great for music listeners.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

This is absolutely correct. Add in the culture of BS around REL from hi-fi retailers, and it was a mistake very easily made.

Exactly... "a bit of research" (as opposed to a lot of research) would very easily lead anyone to believe REL is an amazing choice.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Calm down Steve, no need to raise your voice, you will be heard. Too much coffee this morning??

My bad... I should have added some emoji after the first line [edited to add that].

My main point was aligned with your point — REL is a master at marketing. But, what I was reacting to was the implication that the OP had not bothered to do any research, and if they had simply done "a bit" of research, they wouldn't have made the mistake.

 

[poxymoron]

My bad... I should have added some emoji after the first line [edited to add that].

My main point was aligned with your point — REL is a master at marketing. But, what I was reacting to was the implication that the OP had not bothered to do any research, and if they had simply done "a bit" of research, they wouldn't have made the mistake.

Rel's youtube videos with their lead designer John Hunter can also be quite convincing if you've not done your research. They are masters indeed.

Edit: typo

 

[goat76]

I don't believe there is a REL sub the same footprint as the SVS SB-1000 which will deliver the same performance, or anywhere close. Regardless of price.

Deflecting the criticism onto me (the forum poster) doesn't really change the critique of the subwoofer brand though. I take full responsibility for my mistake. You can see in my original post that I had said "I dearly wish I had read this thread".

You are right though in saying the upper REL's perform probably as well as the lower SVS. But they will be bigger as well as significantly more expensive. The T5x is extremely popular, and this vastly popular model is overpriced and underperforms. Great for REL and their profits, not so great for music listeners.

Can I ask you how you did set up your REL when you had it?

 

[Jake Cushing]

Can I ask you how you did set up your REL when you had it?

In the exact same position the SVS SB 1000 is located

 

[goat76]

There is nothing in REL subwoofers that make them inherently easier to integrate. OTOH, SVS subwoofers provide some tool that could help the integration process.
REL success in the market is due to good marketing, aided by the falsities of the High End Audio press. They are thoroughly surpassed in term of measurable performance by the usual suspects (SVS, HSU, Monoprice, Rythmik, etc) and many others. They are overpriced. Don't fall for the marketing BS that says that using the speaker signal makes them more musical or easier to integrate : it is utter BS. Provable. The reference when it comes to subwoofers Sweetchaos Subwoofer Comparison .

I hasten to add that subwoofer integration to main is not impossible, it remains difficult. It requires lot of measurements and, reiterations. Another added complexity to the process of integration, is that the better results are obtained with multiple (as in more than one) subwoofers which increase, manyfold, the difficulty of integration. To make things even more complicated, the DRC/DSP/EQ in many AVR do not do the greatest job when it comes to integrating subwoofer and mains. Audyssey, for example, requires manual adjustment (At least for me and from reading fora, most people), DIRAC with all the good will and great buzz does not either; unless you count the rarely if ever present DLBC, which is an add-on, not part of the usual DIRAC. Many audiophiles use an external DSP/EQ component, one of the often used is the miniDSP 2x4 HD. And, yes, it takes time to make this work, and patience, and determination, and research... Good integration of mains and subwoofer (singular or plural) , mandates the use of a measurement microphone such as the UMik-1 and software such as REW and/or MSO. The last two would never win a contest for ease of use, let alone to master. MSO in particular is powerful for multiple subwoofers integration, but it takes some (a long?) time to get the hang of it... Let's go ahead and call it "difficult" . And you still need to have a good grasp and understanding of REW to achieve good results with MSO ... So .. No! Subwoofer integration is not easy. I would go as far as declaring that, optimal results are rarely achieved by most.
It is also safe to say that it is impossible to achieve great subwoofer integration with mains without DSP and EQ.

The above holds for any subwoofer.. REL included.

Peace.

There are a lot of people who struggle with the setup of their subwoofers. Just look at the threads with people who prefer the sound of their speakers without the addition of the lowest bass region, they simply didn't get the setup right.

And you are right, it's hard without measurements and EQ with any type of subwoofer, but what makes the REL “sub-bass systems” a bit easier is the way they are just supposed to do the lowest bass where the main speakers naturally rolls-off.
It's not as critical to get it completely right with the crossover point as low as 30-40 Hz.

If it's the regular kind of “80 Hz crossover” someone is going for, it will be a bit more complicated and quality subwoofer will work for that.

I have a stereo setup of REL subwoofers with low crossover points, and let my main speakers play “full-range” which works perfectly for me. But I have listened and made measurements to find the perfect crossover point, and I also use EQ to get a somewhat flat frequency response.

 

[goat76]

In the exact same position the SVS SB 1000 is located

I meant the details like the connection type, crossover and such. Did you follow the way REL subwoofers are meant to be used, or did you set it up like a regular subwoofer?

 

[Jake Cushing]

I meant the details like the connection type, crossover and such. Did you follow the way REL subwoofers are meant to be used, or did you set it up like a regular subwoofer?

It was connected with their speak-on connection via the amp's speaker outputs.

All crossover and volume settings were tried.

Corner placement was tried.

It all sucks.

 

[tehas]

A couple years ago when I was first buying subwoofers, I did a little research went to a handful of traditional hi-fi stores in my area. Can confirm the strong marketing REL has around being musical and 'audiophile', and that the dealers push this narrative. Fortunately, offended by the prices and the hard sell, I did a LOT more research and ended up with Rythmik (thank my stars)

 

[sqheaven]

Today I received my 2nd T/9x and a friend of mine who has a single SVS SB-2000 shared this thread with me. I am sharing my experience here for the sake of anyone who is confused by this thread. I gave up the SVS SB-2000 to make this move, I heard both subs REL/SVS side by side in an a/b comparison and my ears preferred REL within seconds if not minutes. I had a REL HT1205 before I moved onto T/9x as my end-game sub.

I believe my HiFi has never sounded this better, hand down. The same friend of mine was jumping on the sofa when he first heard T/9x in my setup, and I never really enjoyed his SVS SB-2000, he kept changing the phase from the app and bumping the gain up and down, what else, moving physical location, and then finally switching it off saying his system sounds better without the SVS, etc.

I have read a couple of pages on this thread and I believe people are negging REL for their marketing it as being more 'musical', and more expensive. I really hope you do the comparison and then make your decision while buying subs.

 

[Rednaxela]

Have you tried to work out why?

 

[Sal1950]

I heard both subs REL/SVS side by side in an a/b comparison and my ears preferred REL within seconds if not minutes. I had a REL HT1205 before I moved onto T/9x as my end-game sub.

Have you actually measured both subs in your room to find out why they sound the way they do?

 

[Willem]

How were they connected? Both at line level, both at speaker level, or the REL at speaker level and the SVS at line level? Identical crossover frequencies?

 

[Jake Cushing]

I have read a couple of pages on this thread and I believe people are negging REL for their marketing it as being more 'musical', and more expensive.

The T/9x is fully double the price of the SVS SB 1000.
It's specced low bass is -6 dB at 27hz, whereas the SVS is -3db at 24 hz. Sure, it may perform subjectively better. May.

But the REL looks for all purposes to be twice the price, significantly bigger and heavier, and poorer in performance. Not to mention emblazoned all over with its logo, even on the driver which the cloth grill appears designed not to obscure.

No-one is saying there is anything inherently wrong with REL, but this is a consumer recommendation and discussion type of forum thread. Hence the lack of love.

I would suggest that anybody considering a REL at least audition an SVS or Rhythmik or equivalent, before the hi-fi salesman convinces them to part with their hard-earned.

 

[poxymoron]

The T/9x is fully double the price of the SVS SB 1000.
It's specced low bass is -6 dB at 27hz, whereas the SVS is -3db at 24 hz. Sure, it may perform subjectively better. May.

But the REL looks for all purposes to be twice the price, significantly bigger and heavier, and poorer in performance. Not to mention emblazoned all over with its logo, even on the driver which the cloth grill appears designed not to obscure.

No-one is saying there is anything inherently wrong with REL, but this is a consumer recommendation and discussion type of forum thread. Hence the lack of love.

I would suggest that anybody considering a REL at least audition an SVS or Rhythmik or equivalent, before the hi-fi salesman convinces them to part with their hard-earned.

If you're looking for comparative specs then you need to look at the S/510 sub at £2,299 - crazy money.

Edit:
And even then the Rel does not spec as well as the SVS. But I suspect that the Rel sounds fantastic even if it doesn't sound more musical.

 

[bodhi]

I have read a couple of pages on this thread and I believe people are negging REL for their marketing it as being more 'musical', and more expensive. I really hope you do the comparison and then make your decision while buying subs.

We are mocking REL because their subs perform poorly compared to competition. It's not an opinion.

What is debatable is that if REL includes some magic ingredient that defies what we know about subwoofer performance.

There is also very convincing alternate theory as to why people seem to prefer REL as more musical: the same people don't setup their subs correctly with measurements and EQ.