Is my preferred genre incompatible with hifi speakers?

[Chris A]

also, room correction becomes very important for this as well, to clean up those bass issues.

Not just bass issues--but rather full audible spectrum.

This of course is a function of the directivity response of loudspeakers and their placement in-room. Any irregularities in polar coverage vs. frequency or loss of polar control (something that plagues most direct radiating loudspeakers below 800-2000 Hz) will require "salt and pepper" EQ to mitigate these effects of varying reflection magnitudes vs. frequency. This is also the reason why mastering practices usually attenuate the 100-200 Hz region--to control the "mud factor" in home hi-fi listening rooms.

Directivity irregularities are the source of timbre mismatches between loudspeaker types and models, in addition to the more widely known issue of amplitude and phase response irregularities.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

One way to achieve this is via diffraction (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c).

Hi Chris,

I agree with most of what you wrote. The line about achieving this “via diffraction (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c)” is a bit of an oversimplification.

Below 100 Hz, which is the low-frequency crossover, the 8c is designed to work together with the front wall. The wall becomes a part of the speaker system itself in that range. The result is a phase-coherent wavefront that is radiated forward, hemispherically.

From 100 Hz to roughly 600 Hz, directivity is mainly controlled by a gradient setup. We use the out-of-phase radiation from the back of the midwoofer to cancel energy traveling toward the rear, and to a lesser extent toward the sides, top and bottom. In that region, pattern control comes primarily from controlled cancellation rather than diffraction.

Between about 600 Hz and the 1250 Hz crossover to the tweeter, directivity is increasingly determined by the natural beaming of the cone combined with constructive edge diffraction, often described as baffle step.

Above 1250 Hz the tweeter takes over. At the lower end of its range the waveguide contributes to directivity, but it is hard to separate that from controlled baffle-edge diffraction because they were designed as one system. The radius on the baffle edge is shaped to reduce unwanted diffraction above roughly 2 kHz, while deliberately using some diffraction lower down where the interference with the tweeter’s direct sound is mostly constructive on axis, which increases forward directivity.

So diffraction plays a role, but it is only one of several mechanisms at work. The real challenge is getting all of these frequency ranges and radiation principles to integrate smoothly so the speaker behaves as one coherent radiator across the bandwidth.

 

[Chris A]

What I was referring to was the control mid-bass frequencies using an array of drivers and not a waveguide/horn. You can refer to that approach in the way you wish.

I got most of my views on this subject from Mitch Barnett's review of the 8c's in his listening room. He normally listens to JBL 4722s, which themselves lose their horizontal polar control below ~800 Hz and vertical polar control ~450 Hz due to use of dual over/under direct radiating woofers.

Chris

 

[Zenheiser]

Update: this has become a rabbit hole.

To improve the sound quality of the Mini 300, the electrical chain and the loudspeakers I bought some reference grade cables and OP Amps. The retail prices were quite high, but I could get a good deal on classifieds, saving about 50% on everything.

The improvemts were massive, every cent was well invested, the highs are brilliant, the curtain is lifted and I can hear things the bands were not even playing.

Naaah....

In fact I understood things like sensitivity - with the Elac's 86db the Mini 300 was just not fully sufficient at being an ideal partner for the speakers. I truly regretted that, as it was such a simple, well build, great (i.e. not at all) sounding little amp.

Time for the Fosi Mono V3s. Equally well performing, good headroom, way more cabling, hooray.

I experimented a lot with speaker positioning and found a sweet spot of ~50cm to the back wall. Then I began playing around with the DX5IIs PEQ.

While the Spinorama for the Vela 403 shows some significant deviations from a neutral curve in some areas...

...which I corrected with the PEQ as far as possible, I am now pretty sure this is not a design flaw by any means, but a very deliberate voicing. In fact, the speaker sounds subjectively audibly better with the stock curve - at least for most genres, except for my preferred genre. Listening to technical metal, I do not really hear a difference.

Parallel to playing around with my little home setup, I went to several shops, listening to ~50-80 pairs of speakers, always with my playlist (not only Metal, but also Classic, Techno, Jazz) in all price ranges (actually up to 50k). While this was sometimes very impressive, I really could not find any speaker matching the sound I was truly looking for. No single speaker delivered the instrument separation I was looking for, listening to my genre. The ability for me to switch my attention from 380bpm drum blast beat to 200bpm Guitar riffs back and forth, effortlessly (!) was never really as present as in the PA store I visited in the very beginning.

So, time for an A/B-Test.

Voilà, the KH 120 II in white arrived:

Now I could really compare professional monitors and Hifi speakers in my own listening environment.

I carefully adjusted the volume identically and started listening.

First observations: the KH12 II's bass is, well, another league. Not only compared to the Elacs, but to many, many other much bigger speakers I listened to.

I just...kicks. Laser sharp, precise as I don't know what. And it goes deeeeeep. Some people recommend using a woofer with the 120 II, but I am not sure why anyone would add a woofer to something that is able to unscrew the wall hooks in my bedroom, which is two doors down the hallway...

I actually reduced the bass level with the little gizmos on the backpanel of the speakers.

Now the interesting parts:

The Elacs are very, very good speakers. The KH 120 II did not outclass them as I actually prefer the Jet 5 over the Neumann's Tweeter (much "rounder", less stressful), while I prefer the bass precision of the Neumann's. It's a draw - except for ONE genre...

Switching to my preferred genre, the Neumann's excell the Elac's performance not only by a bit but they outclass them in every single aspect. While I could not identify which speaker was playing while listening to classical music, many techno songs (except for songs with very, very deep kick bass where the Neumann's played much more controlled and much deeper and could be identified), Rock, Pop in blind tests, the Elacs sounded absolutely muffled and lost a tremendous amounts of precision when I switched to extreme metal. My brother (metal musician...) and my family confirmed this impression.

So, I come to a conclusion of my initial question, the reason, I started this thread:

My genre is sort of incompatible with Hifi speakers, at least when you want to listen to it the way I do.

So: I will keep the Neumann's - which look amazing on the stands in my opinion - and save a loooot of cables and hardware.

DX 5II + 2 x Neumann KH 120 II + some cables and stands. 1.800 Euro for *my* perfect setup.

I am happy!

Thanks for all your input!

 

[goat76]

So, I come to a conclusion of my initial question, the reason, I started this thread:

My genre is sort of incompatible with Hifi speakers, at least when you want to listen to it the way I do.

So: I will keep the Neumann's - which look amazing on the stands in my opinion - and save a loooot of cables and hardware.

Great that you are happy with your choice of loudspeakers, but your conclusion that "HiFi speakers" are not compatible with your preferred music genre is a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?

I think you will be even more satisfied with the sound if you do something about the room's acoustics, which looks a bit lively, based on the small part of the room seen in the picture and the mirror reflection of your TV. All types of music benefit from an acoustically well-behaved listening environment, but I would say it's even more noticeable with fast-paced, dense mixes of rock and metal, which tend to sound even more chaotic than they actually are in a room with harsh-sounding reflections.

 

[Wolf11Man]

Congratulation you found "your" speaker. The Neumann KH120II is about as good as it can get for 1800€. Great value.

Take the advice above serious. Maybe cover some parts of the left and right walls with a thick blanket, just for a test. A carpet between you and the speakers may help, too.
Today it is cheap to measure a room for acoustic properties. If you invest some time in how to do this, it may pay of. Don't buy anything and measure later, the other way round is much better.
Don't fall for bass traps and the like. Usually a few, strategicaly placed, flat absorbers/ difusers will help a lot.
The Neumanns have some usefull adjusters, but they can't cure early reflections if those disturb your sound experience.

 

[Ropeburn]

Update: this has become a rabbit hole.

To improve the sound quality of the Mini 300, the electrical chain and the loudspeakers I bought some reference grade cables and OP Amps. The retail prices were quite high, but I could get a good deal on classifieds, saving about 50% on everything.

View attachment 525441
View attachment 525442
View attachment 525443

The improvemts were massive, every cent was well invested, the highs are brilliant, the curtain is lifted and I can hear things the bands were not even playing.

Naaah....

In fact I understood things like sensitivity - with the Elac's 86db the Mini 300 was just not fully sufficient at being an ideal partner for the speakers. I truly regretted that, as it was such a simple, well build, great (i.e. not at all) sounding little amp.

Time for the Fosi Mono V3s. Equally well performing, good headroom, way more cabling, hooray.

View attachment 525450

I experimented a lot with speaker positioning and found a sweet spot of ~50cm to the back wall. Then I began playing around with the DX5IIs PEQ.

While the Spinorama for the Vela 403 shows some significant deviations from a neutral curve in some areas...
View attachment 525447
...which I corrected with the PEQ as far as possible, I am now pretty sure this is not a design flaw by any means, but a very deliberate voicing. In fact, the speaker sounds subjectively audibly better with the stock curve - at least for most genres, except for my preferred genre. Listening to technical metal, I do not really hear a difference.

Parallel to playing around with my little home setup, I went to several shops, listening to ~50-80 pairs of speakers, always with my playlist (not only Metal, but also Classic, Techno, Jazz) in all price ranges (actually up to 50k). While this was sometimes very impressive, I really could not find any speaker matching the sound I was truly looking for. No single speaker delivered the instrument separation I was looking for, listening to my genre. The ability for me to switch my attention from 380bpm drum blast beat to 200bpm Guitar riffs back and forth, effortlessly (!) was never really as present as in the PA store I visited in the very beginning.

So, time for an A/B-Test.

Voilà, the KH 120 II in white arrived:

View attachment 525439

Now I could really compare professional monitors and Hifi speakers in my own listening environment.

I carefully adjusted the volume identically and started listening.

First observations: the KH12 II's bass is, well, another league. Not only compared to the Elacs, but to many, many other much bigger speakers I listened to.

I just...kicks. Laser sharp, precise as I don't know what. And it goes deeeeeep. Some people recommend using a woofer with the 120 II, but I am not sure why anyone would add a woofer to something that is able to unscrew the wall hooks in my bedroom, which is two doors down the hallway...

I actually reduced the bass level with the little gizmos on the backpanel of the speakers.

Now the interesting parts:

The Elacs are very, very good speakers. The KH 120 II did not outclass them as I actually prefer the Jet 5 over the Neumann's Tweeter (much "rounder", less stressful), while I prefer the bass precision of the Neumann's. It's a draw - except for ONE genre...

Switching to my preferred genre, the Neumann's excell the Elac's performance not only by a bit but they outclass them in every single aspect. While I could not identify which speaker was playing while listening to classical music, many techno songs (except for songs with very, very deep kick bass where the Neumann's played much more controlled and much deeper and could be identified), Rock, Pop in blind tests, the Elacs sounded absolutely muffled and lost a tremendous amounts of precision when I switched to extreme metal. My brother (metal musician...) and my family confirmed this impression.

So, I come to a conclusion of my initial question, the reason, I started this thread:

My genre is sort of incompatible with Hifi speakers, at least when you want to listen to it the way I do.

So: I will keep the Neumann's - which look amazing on the stands in my opinion - and save a loooot of cables and hardware.

DX 5II + 2 x Neumann KH 120 II + some cables and stands. 1.800 Euro for *my* perfect setup.

I am happy!

Thanks for all your input!

 

[Zenheiser]

Great that you are happy with your choice of loudspeakers, but your conclusion that "HiFi speakers" are not compatible with your preferred music genre is a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?

I think you will be even more satisfied with the sound if you do something about the room's acoustics, which looks a bit lively, based on the small part of the room seen in the picture and the mirror reflection of your TV. All types of music benefit from an acoustically well-behaved listening environment, but I would say it's even more noticeable with fast-paced, dense mixes of rock and metal, which tend to sound even more chaotic than they actually are in a room with harsh-sounding reflections.

"but your conclusion that "HiFi speakers" are not compatible with your preferred music genre is a pretty broad generalization, don't you think?"

And that is exactly why I chose my words very, very carefully and expressed a different conclusion.

Room optimization is incoming, some carpet some wall pads, actually repositioning the Sofa (3 Meters wide) already Made an audible difference for both speakers. I will not commit fully here with bass traps etc., but we planned to install a very wide bookshelf on the rear wall anyway.

This room has some issues I will have to live with - perhaps our next apartment will provide better listening conditions.

 

[Ropeburn]

I really think the issue isn't "hifi" vs "pro" but really mediocre vs really good. Of the result in room. You obviously have high demands with your tastes and listening habits and aren't satisfied with mediocrity.

Any category can satisfy these demands, it's just that pro monitors do it easier and cheaper. Nice to hear ( ) you're happy with the Neumanns. Always a delight seeing that enthusiasm and satisfaction in a fellow music lover. <3

 

[Multicore]

Is my preferred genre incompatible with hifi speakers?

Mine is

 

[Zenheiser]

After a couple of days with the KH 120 IIs I can confidently say: THIS is the way I always wanted to listen to music with speakers. I am very, very happy with my setup.

 

[Redacted]

I liked the track in the original post! New to me; very technical & competent, but I'm more of a Tool fan!

I played it through two sets of phones (IEM and over-ear) and through the speakers on my main rig (until my wife threatened me!) and it sounded fine to me (yes, I realize it's only youtube). Compared to many tracks/albums I own, this sounded very "middy" - bass is there but not prominent, and treble is smooth (not overbearing like on a lot of metal with compression). It seemed like an easy track to reproduce well, despite its 'busy-ness'.

It may be said better above, but most shops selling "hifi" have limited or poor taste in music, and will set rooms up to sound OK for their typical customer profile (often gormless and easily impressed people with money burning a hole in their pockets; the staff may schmooze well but they are chasing a good margin in the end !). It's probably not down to the speakers they are demo-ing though...

Gear in guitar shops is there to impress when it's loud - usually a good thing IMHO - and the instruments playing through their amps/speakers are very middy in tone. For example, there's nothing above 5-6kHz you will hear through a bunch of 12" celestions etc. (and I have played all sorts through my guitar rig - it usually all sounds good). But you mention pro monitors - these often are chosen by engineers to be a version of what kind of systems most people have at home (but also revealing of recording flaws), or traditionally, to make sure their mixes sounded good on radio, back when radio was a big thing.

Also, don't forget that with 'phones, you are listening binaurally - i.e. two mono tracks that are quite separate until your brain combines them, but when listening to speakers, the stereo effect is different because both ears are hearing some sound from both L & R speakers. I wonder if some material is mixed only using headphones? I'm thinking that in a pro-gear or instrument shop, listening to stereo speakers, they will be a tad more like 'phones (less of the stereo imaging etc), while HiFi shops will go out of their way to emphasize stereo imaging and nuance (and pick musical recordings that work well to show this off).

Long-winded (sorry), but I reckon you can buy "hifi" speakers that if set up propely in your listening room may well sound pretty good with your music, but you really need to try speakers at home. If not possible, and you have heard monitors you like then buy those. Personally, I'm a fan of having a couple of subs too!.

 

[krabapple]

After a couple of days with the KH 120 IIs I can confidently say: THIS is the way I always wanted to listen to music with speakers. I am very, very happy with my setup.

Oh, you'll be back.

I can confidently say that, having observed audio hobbyists for decades.

 

[kemmler3D]

Oh, you'll be back.

I can confidently say that, having observed audio hobbyists for decades.

Selection bias... you never hear from the people that find speakers they like, go and listen to them, and stop talking about them.

 

[krabapple]

Do such people tend to post to online audio forums in the first place? And do they have the similar concerns to the OP's?

 

[kemmler3D]

Do such people tend to post to online audio forums in the first place? And do they have the similar concerns to the OP's?

I guess we will find out, if OP's post count stops going up (or not...)

 

[krabapple]

At some point he will find his perfect speakers wanting in some regard. It will gnaw at him, and the hunt will resume.... that is my prediction.

Whether he tells us about it, is another matter.

 

[Spkrdctr]

At some point he will find his perfect speakers wanting in some regard. It will gnaw at him, and the hunt will resume.... that is my prediction.

Whether he tells us about it, is another matter.

So true. The audio curse......

 

[Zenheiser]

Added Volumio on a Pi to my setup.

So my chain is now:

USB-Stick with WAV-Files -> Raspberry Pi with Volumio -> USB into DX5 II -> XLR into KH 120 II

Control from any device in my home (tablet, smartphone, PC) + Spotify Option into Volumio (works perfect). USB Stick can be accessed as network drive.

Everything neatly stored, only the speakers are visible. Minimal cabling, maximum convenience.

I live in the future now, yeah!

Edit: Just switched everything to FLAC.

 

[Redacted]

Nice and minimalist. So why WAV files, and not FLACs, given minimalism?