Is my preferred genre incompatible with hifi speakers?

[serhii_o]

(JBL 4329 maybe?)

I agree. This is a very underrated speaker system. Perhaps because of its old-school look. Although I hardly listen to metal, it reproduces heavier genres captivatingly.

 

[MattHooper]

No… but it might be incompatible with girlfriends or wives.

 

[Madlop26]

Dear Zenheiser. My advise for a god sound is to listen in the near field of speakers. That is the nearest you can come headphone-sound.

Agree, I have like 8 good headphones, 12 IEMs, one room system with Kef speakers, another with Sonos and the larger one with Revel speakers. but the one that amazes me the most my nearfield small Genelecs paired with a cheap small sub. Nearfield is magic.

 

[Waxx]

No… but it might be incompatible with girlfriends or wives.

Mine bought herself a pair of 4367's, that are way bigger... She does not listen to metal (or any rock) altough, mostly french/magrebian hiphop, gwana, rai, and classical European, Amazigh (Berber) and Arab music (as she is from Algerian origin).

 

[krabapple]

Dear Zenheiser. My advise for a god sound is to listen in the near field of speakers. That is the nearest you can come headphone-sound.

Pretty much this if headphone-like sound is what you seek from two-channel playback. You are taking room reflections further out of the picture. You don't need special speakers for it, except, probably not dipoles or bipoles or omnis or Bose 901s

Another option ,surround setups, are also immersive, but also involve direct sound, making the room disappear... and in certain configs you may even shoot one pair of speaker outputs straight into your ears.

 

[Mnyb]

If you go for larger bass capable speakers or subs you gona need some room DSP to not get that muddy bass you dislike in rooms vs headphones.

In some aspects the KEF LS60 might be suitable, but it may not be loud enough and still sound good

 

[MarkS]

FWIW, a review with measurements of the OP's preferred headphones:

DT 1350

back to Beyerdynamic back to measurements home published: Jun-11-2014, updated: Dec-20-2021 NO SMOOTHING is applied to the shown plots. Most measurement sites have some smoothing applied which &#82…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

 

[Zenheiser]

I made a decision.

I need a starting point for this in my own room. Comparing speakes at the store can give you an idea, but RL conditions are different. So I purchased some items from classifieds:

- Topping Mini 300. I bought it a couple of weeks ago already as it is dirt cheap and shows nice test results - also I took it to the local hifi shop and was allowed to compare it to their stock amps. As I could not hear (or make myself imagine to hear) any difference between this amp and any of their 500/1000/2.000+ Euro amps, there is not a single reason for me to spend even a cent more on an amp.
- Topping DX5II DAC: can be used also as headphone amp and, most important, comes with a PEQ
- Elac Vela BS 403: definitely NOT my first choice, but they were ok and I got them really, really cheap and - now have something to play around with
- A pair of Solidsteel SS-6 is on its way.

This setup does now allow me to:

- learn about room acoustics
- optimize my room and the speaker position
- play around with the PEQ

When everything is dialed in to my taste, I will try some of the professional monitors next to the Elacs and compare them under realistic conditions.
Next stop: hardware store for Rockwool.

 

[Chromatischism]

Hello all,

I hope my question is not regarded as too off, but...I will just give it a try.

Due to being a consultant and therefore travelling a lot, I did not own loudspeakers for the last ~13 years. I am a huge fan of very, very technical metal (Archspire, Psycroptic, etc.) and listened to that kind of music with my beloved headphone companion Beyerdynamic DT1350.

(sorry already if this is just noise for you, but I just love it).

I chose this pair of headphones back in the days as it was pretty much the only headphone in the shop that allowed me to not only enjoy a song itself, but to easily follow any instrument in the mix separately and, most importantly, effortlessly. I want to only focus on the drums? No problem. I want to listen to the bass only? Easy. Vocals only? Swap between them? Enjoy just the attack of the snare, identify the string gauge on the guitar (just kidding) - what I want to say is: that`s the way I like to enjoy music on my headphones: absolute precision, still easy listening. Btw: I only listened to flac- or WAV-files.

Now my personal circumstances have changed and I wanted to invest in a nice hifi setup for my home. I did a lot of research on this forum regarding amps and speakers which might fit my requirements and sound preferences and then went to the local expert shop to have a listening session in their test chamb.., uh, tastefully, obviously geometrically perfect and elegant listening room. They had various speakers from Elac (Vela Something), Fischer&Fischer, Quadral and KEF in various price ranges and presented them to me with some random classical music, Blues, Jazz, Orchestra etc. Although all of the speakers sounded different, but all exceptionally great, I quickly noticed, that I really somehow disliked low frequencies. For some of the smaller speakers, the shop owner recommended the addition of a subwoofer, but the moment he turned it on to present the difference and smiled to me as if he wanted to suggest that the music was now more even enjoyable, to me everything suddenly really sounded meh and was just...a mess and no pleasure anymore. Like a layer of discomfort. A distraction. It added volume, but reduced the overall precision. It is hard to explain, but I really, really did not like the sound, independent of the price tag of the equipment he switched on and off.

Now to the actual problem: as I know my musical taste is not really mainstream or mass compatible, it took a while for me to hesitantly ask if I could play some of my own music. No problem, he said. But there was a problem: all songs sounded shite. At first I could not really understand what it was, as all speakers were somehow great before, but then I realized, that I was lacking the ability to effortlessly(!) follow each instrument. The song itself was there, yes, but a good amount of the separation was gone. I could no longer follow each instrument with ease, but had to focus very intensely, making listening a physical excercise, not a pleasure. I had my DT 1350s with me, listend to the same song again to make sure I wasnt having a bad day, but: absolutely different experience.

So I left the shop (without speakers, of course).

Yesterday I had the opportunity to visit a huge professional audio shop in the next big town with my brother, who was looking for guitar equipment. They had a listening room with loudspeakers and I could connect my phone to them.

Huge surprise for me: every speaker in this room was better than anything I listened to before in the hifi shop. And not by a small amount. By lightyears. I spent almost 60 minutes in there, swapping back and forth from pair to pair, enjoying my music in a way I did not think it was possible with speakers at all. I could hear the same details as with my headphones and was able to follow the individual components of each song absolutely effortless. The best part was: even when I was 2-3 meters away from the speakers, running around, and definitely not in a perfect listening position, the experience was still way better than with any of the $$$$$$-equipment at the hifi shop. I am not talking about a slight difference, but another world.

I narrowed my preference down to:

Neumann KH 120A
Genelec 8040
Adam Audio A7V (not as clean as the aforementioned, but overall...a bit more fun)

I tried some electronic music afterwards and even that sounded better than any of the huge tower speakers in the hifi shop.

So I am actually asking myself three questions now:

1. Did I "ruin" my listening preferences with my headphones over the last 13 years and/or
2. Is the music I am listening to generally "incompatible" with hifi equipment?
3. Is there any drawback in using one of the aforementioned speakers in my living room?

Also perhaps someone here can shed a bit of light into my experience and why it is the way it is?

I think I know what you're experiencing.

You don't like a lot of reflections. And wide-dispersion speakers play into that.

That's why the controlled directivity speakers are better for you. They offer a much more "clean" and technical sound, closer to what you get with headphones.

A setup with a shorter listening distance to the speakers also helps.

I have experienced the same thing with my controlled directivity speakers and IEMs. I much prefer them to other systems I've heard.

We need systems that:

• Have a smooth, neutral midrange
• Control directivity so off-axis sound is high-quality but down in level
• Do not feature a lot of reflections (but some can help with soundstage, you don't want it to sound too closed-in)
• Are not bright (meaning, treble is neutral to slightly dark)
• Have bass that is technically integrated extremely well

These genres of music are the most demanding of anything you could listen to because they resemble the most spectrally-dense material. They are the closest music to pink noise.

 

[Waxx]

It's good that you try to study your room's acoustics. Place the speakers on different locations to see the difference and also measure the response (so you see in graphs and numbers how the room interact) if you can. A Umik-1 usb microphone is cheap and good enough and the software needed (REW) is free.

What i would suggest you to do also is listen to your music on high sensitive (or at least high volume capable) speakers, preferable in your room, but any room that is similar size can give you an id what they do. Decent Pa tops in good shape can even be good to hear what difference those make. They may be rentable (i know some do that here) so you don't have to buy them.

 

[Kervel]

Just my 2c. I love OPs music, and find it sounds best on speakers with big and/or multiple woofers. Just lots of mid and upper bass. Definitely use room correction to prevent muddy sounds. Subs help, but only if properly integrated with DSP.

 

[AndyMorris]

I went out on Saturday night to my first reggae sound system for what must be more than 40 years. Some observations:

• The sound is nothing like any hifi I have ever heard. Bass loud enough to clear your sinuses and massage the stiff shoulder I had. Sound system speaker walls about 8ft high and 6ft wide. I cannot imagine having that level of volume at home unless you live d in a bunker or on an island, in a home with no crookery, windows or anything else that would rattle.
• Horribly distorted mid and top end. There were four systems set up as a 'sound clash'. Three had similar 6ft wide walls, on was about 10 wide and sounder much cleaner
• Free ear plugs on the bar - needed them.
• The crowd was very friendly and apart from some complements on the style of my hat, scarf stick combination, chosen because it was a cold night and I have a titanium nail in my leg, so after too much age inappropriate skanking my ankle gets tired and a bit clumsy.
• Consequently. I indulged in sad dad dancing for 3 hours and found the experience of moving, in a crowd, quite wonderful and something that in no way could be repeated at home.

The music is, to an extent, made to be experienced in that environment, there is no real, natural source that would make sense. I'll play similar music at home, have a little dance while I'm cooking. But what I am actually hearing is very different to the sound system environment.

How that relates to the idea of hifi or audio science I have no clue. I guess I read all the stuff on here, partly out of technical curiosity and because if I by new gear I want stuff that doesn't irritate by lacking enough power to play at loud domestic volumes of by adding noticeable distortion.

Buy more records, go and listen to music in a social setting.

 

[Zenheiser]

You don't like a lot of reflections. And wide-dispersion speakers play into that.

That's why the controlled directivity speakers are better for you. They offer a much more "clean" and technical sound, closer to what you get with headphones.

Now this is a very simple, but veeery interesting approach to explain what might cause my problem.

I actually spent the last weeks reading a lot into audio, acoustics, equipment etc. to a) research the market and b) understand my problem.

I also listened to some very, very expensive and highly acclaimed headphones.

With many of these there was a an immediate wow-factor: a holographic stage. My DT1350 does not have this. It presents great stereo imaging, but no three-dimensionality at all. While this effect was nice with the other headphones - and also something that was very well done by the Radiant Acoustics - I am not sure I really enjoy in the long run. It is like watching a movie in 3d. Sometimes nice, but overall distracting and nothing I could do more than once in a while. It was very nice with elkectronic music, orchestra etc. but with my genre it somehow did not match.

This preference is definitely, to some degree, influenced by what I am used to. Buuuut no comes the interesting part: technical metal is not meant to be "holographic". It is not about a wide stage, three-dimensionality, "holographicness". While I enjoy this effect when listeining to electronic or classical music, I do however not enjoy it while listening to metal as it somehow sounds wrong. It is somewhat like an otherwise excellent photo filter not matching the content of a specific image.

I think - and thank you for leading me to this insight - controlled directivity is somehow inherent to how this type of music is played on stage and arranged. Technical metal is not at all about presenting a wide stage - so perhaps my problem is caused by trying to apply something that is regarded as benefitial for many types of music to something that is inherently imcompatible with it.

 

[Robin L]

I made a decision.

I need a starting point for this in my own room. Comparing speakes at the store can give you an idea, but RL conditions are different. So I purchased some items from classifieds:

- Topping Mini 300. I bought it a couple of weeks ago already as it is dirt cheap and shows nice test results - also I took it to the local hifi shop and was allowed to compare it to their stock amps. As I could not hear (or make myself imagine to hear) any difference between this amp and any of their 500/1000/2.000+ Euro amps, there is not a single reason for me to spend even a cent more on an amp.
- Topping DX5II DAC: can be used also as headphone amp and, most important, comes with a PEQ
- Elac Vela BS 403: definitely NOT my first choice, but they were ok and I got them really, really cheap and - now have something to play around with
- A pair of Solidsteel SS-6 is on its way.

This setup does now allow me to:

- learn about room acoustics
- optimize my room and the speaker position
- play around with the PEQ

When everything is dialed in to my taste, I will try some of the professional monitors next to the Elacs and compare them under realistic conditions.
Next stop: hardware store for Rockwool.

View attachment 509996

Amp and DAC will doubtless be great. I suspect the Elacs (these ones, at least) probably won't have enough "oomph" for your musical interests. I'd look for something bigger, with bigger drivers. As I mentioned before, I listen to a lot of orchestral music with dense scoring. I've got a small room, sit close to the speakers, Infinity Primus 250s, floorstanding. There's also a powered subwoofer. The speakers are more efficient than average, raising them 14" off the floor irons out their trace of "boom", the sub fills what's missing down to a little under 30 hz. I'd harbor a guess that these Elacs won't be loud enough.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Interesting speaker thread and lots of great comments. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[Chromatischism]

I think - and thank you for leading me to this insight - controlled directivity is somehow inherent to how this type of music is played on stage and arranged. Technical metal is not at all about presenting a wide stage - so perhaps my problem is caused by trying to apply something that is regarded as benefitial for many types of music to something that is inherently imcompatible with it.

You can still have a large soundstage with controlled directivity.

When I refer to not preferring a lot of reflections, think in terms of echoes. They smear details and reduce the intimate nature of many recordings.

 

[Mort]

You can still have a large soundstage with controlled directivity.

When I refer to not preferring a lot of reflections, think in terms of echoes. They smear details and reduce the intimate nature of many recordings.

You aren't wrong but It's generally considered a trade off.

 

[Chromatischism]

You aren't wrong but It's generally considered a trade off.

Yeah I won't say it will be huge. But it isn't a direct relationship.

Note I said controlled, not necessarily narrow.

My Buchardts were 50-60° of controlled directivity. You get a good soundstange and precision imaging. I'm a fan.

 

[Chris A]

We need systems that:

• Have a smooth, neutral midrange
• Control directivity so off-axis sound is high-quality but down in level
• Do not feature a lot of reflections (but some can help with soundstage, you don't want it to sound too closed-in)
• Are not bright (meaning, treble is neutral to slightly dark)
• Have bass that is technically integrated extremely well

These genres of music are the most demanding of anything you could listen to because they resemble the most spectrally-dense material. They are the closest music to pink noise.

In addition to the need for very low modulation distortion (achievable via higher loudspeaker efficiency--I discussed this in an earlier post), simultaneously one also needs controlled early reflections just around the loudspeakers, within the first 4-6 ms from the direct arrival sound from the loudspeakers.

The comment above concerning spectrally dense music is apropos to the particular genres of music being discussed. The more spectrally dense the music, the greater the need for both low modulation distortion (the "mud factor" for loudspeakers) and controlled early reflections (most easily heard around 100-200 Hz in the "mud region" of playback in home hi-fi listening rooms).

In typical home hi-fi rooms, the way one gets lower mud factor from the music itself is through controlled loudspeaker directivity--not just down to 500-1000 Hz or so that you typically get with a hybrid HF horn plus direct radiating woofer loudspeaker, but also below 500-1000 Hz down to the listening room's so-called Schroeder frequency--usually 100-200 Hz. This is the lowest frequency whose "average" wavelength can fully fit into the room's dimensions...with appropriate damping to prevent confusing the human hearing system.

A normalized polar sonogram--horizontal direction--from a fully horn-loaded loudspeaker having -6 dB off-axis directivity down to 100 Hz (indigo blue color).​

This means that the best-sounding loudspeakers in terms of clarity for spectrally dense music like that discussed here are those that can keep their nearfield sound energy off nearby walls, floor, and ceiling within the first 1-2 metres just around each loudspeaker (i,e,, above the Schroeder frequency of the listening room where the sound wavelengths are "traveling" sound waves).

One way to achieve this is via diffraction (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c). The other way is to use fully horn-loaded loudspeakers--like MEHs and corner horns, etc. These type of loudspeakers will present clarity of sound and spectacular soundstaging, even for harmonically dense music like that discussed here.

Chris

 

[Chromatischism]

In addition to the need for very low modulation distortion (achievable via higher loudspeaker efficiency--I discussed this in an earlier post), simultaneously one also needs controlled early reflections just around the loudspeakers, within the first 4-6 ms from the direct arrival sound from the loudspeakers.

The comment above concerning spectrally dense music is apropos to the particular genres of music being discussed. The more spectrally dense the music, the greater the need for both low modulation distortion (the "mud factor" for loudspeakers) and controlled early reflections (most easily heard around 100-200 Hz in the "mud region" of playback in home hi-fi listening rooms).

In typical home hi-fi rooms, the way one gets lower mud factor from the music itself is through controlled loudspeaker directivity--not just down to 500-1000 Hz or so that you typically get with a hybrid HF horn plus direct radiating woofer loudspeaker, but also below 500-1000 Hz down to the listening room's so-called Schroeder frequency--usually 100-200 Hz. This is the lowest frequency whose "average" wavelength can fully fit into the room's dimensions...with appropriate damping to prevent confusing the human hearing system.

A normalized polar sonogram--horizontal direction--from a fully horn-loaded loudspeaker having -6 dB off-axis directivity down to 100 Hz (indigo blue color).​

This means that the best-sounding loudspeakers in terms of clarity for spectrally dense music like that discussed here are those that can keep their nearfield sound energy off nearby walls, floor, and ceiling within the first 1-2 metres just around each loudspeaker (i,e,, above the Schroeder frequency of the listening room where the sound wavelengths are "traveling" sound waves).

One way to achieve this is via diffraction (like the Dutch & Dutch 8c). The other way is to use fully horn-loaded loudspeakers--like MEHs and corner horns, etc. These type of loudspeakers will present clarity of sound and spectacular soundstaging, even for harmonically dense music like that discussed here.

Chris

Good post—also, room correction becomes very important for this as well, to clean up those bass issues.