Is Mcintosh current amp?

[cjm2077]

The THX gives deeper lows, you can hear it with the Focal Clear but not with the Senns HD6XX, I guess the Senns don't give you those tones anyway, I will try to do blind tests but I am alone in this hobby at home.

That does make it hard. You have to be very careful to match levels, because even a little bit of volume difference can make two products that perform identically sound quite a bit different. Our ears aren't very linear. They weren't really made as a precision measurement device.

Even harder is a triple blind test. For that you need to train a German Shepherd to do all the switching. And the person guiding him has to be actually blind.

 

[beefkabob]

That does make it hard. You have to be very careful to match levels, because even a little bit of volume difference can make two products that perform identically sound quite a bit different. Our ears aren't very linear. They weren't really made as a precision measurement device.

Even harder is a triple blind test. For that you need to train a German Shepherd to do all the switching. And the person guiding him has to be actually blind.

Don't forget when, from the confines of a duck blind, the blond blind man and his seeing eye boxer make a mistake while doing double blind testing for a bland man from Belgium.

That's the blind, blond blind and boxer, blind blind, bland Belgian blunder.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

McIntosh is in da house...

 

[BDWoody]

McIntosh is in da house...

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Huge pain in the ass to get them into my room... unboxing will be much easier, thank goodness.

 

[Bear123]

Congrats on you McIntosh gear. Wondering what your reasoning is, if you don't mind, on why you chose a preamp rated at around -62 dB THD(.08%), which would make it one of the worst measuring amp/AVR/pre-pro etc type products ever tested here in ASR? Is the goal high fidelity? I'm honestly curious what benefit such a product has when it appears a very inexpensive mass produced AVR seems to offer substantially better sonic performance. It's very possible I'm speaking out of complete ignorance...I don't have much knowledge about tube products...only an assumption that they are an older audiophile type product that tends to have poor measured performance, but perhaps high preference by some.

 

[SIY]

At least for me, that level of distortion is inaudible for actual physical preamps (as opposed to gedanken experiments like "add 15th harmonic to a 10 Hz sine wave"). I suspect that's true for most others as well.

 

[Bear123]

At least for me, that level of distortion is inaudible for actual physical preamps (as opposed to gedanken experiments like "add 15th harmonic to a 10 Hz sine wave"). I suspect that's true for most others as well.

OK, so, if it is the tube architecture that is causing such high distortion, is it just the nostalgia of having tubes in a product that is the draw? So the mediocre/lousy measured performance might not be highly audible so therefore irrelevant? Measured performance does not seem to justify the $9,000 price tag. On the other hand, I see *a lot* of folks dismissing products as not suitable for high quality music reproduction that have -85 dB/.005% distortion, or DAC's/pre-outs with -95 dB/.0017% distortion. As in, the product is total garbage or total trash at those levels of measured performance.

 

[SIY]

OK, so, if it is the tube architecture that is causing such high distortion, is it just the nostalgia of having tubes in a product that is the draw? So the mediocre/lousy measured performance might not be highly audible so therefore irrelevant?

Yes, yes, and yes. Sure, a '57 T Bird won't accelerate or handle as well as, say, an Acura, and it will cost a lot more. But if you're into cars, it's a fun thing to have. And it will get around on highways just as well.

I can design and make a tube preamp that adds another zero or two behind the decimal point, but it won't sound any different and it won't be any more appealing to the target market. That's why Mac is in the business of selling equipment and I'm not.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Congrats on you McIntosh gear. Wondering what your reasoning is, if you don't mind, on why you chose a preamp rated at around -62 dB THD(.08%), which would make it one of the worst measuring amp/AVR/pre-pro etc type products ever tested here in ASR? Is the goal high fidelity? I'm honestly curious what benefit such a product has when it appears a very inexpensive mass produced AVR seems to offer substantially better sonic performance. It's very possible I'm speaking out of complete ignorance...I don't have much knowledge about tube products...only an assumption that they are an older audiophile type product that tends to have poor measured performance, but perhaps high preference by some.

Firstly, thank you. I'm extremely proud to own this gear, mainly because it's the first time I ever purchased something in this hobby brand new. There is a special fuzzy feeling (at least for me) that you get knowing you are the first time owner of something, getting full manufacture support, and that you will be taken care of by your dealer. Perhaps most importantly, is establishing a relationship with that dealer with the possibility to home audition gear at no cost in the future.

I chose the C2700 instead of the C53 because I wanted to try a tube preamp. I heard both the C53 and C2600 at my dealer and I couldn't hear a difference. I spent an hour switching back and forth on a pair of B&W 803 D3 and I literally couldn't tell a difference between the two. I spent a good 20 minutes trying to hear difference on a single Stevie Ray Vaughn track, swapping back and forth over and over. So based on that, I just choose the 'cooler' looking one.

I bought McIntosh for reasons that have nothing to do with performance. It was for the pride of ownership, mostly, and my extreme attraction to the McIntosh blue meters. I fell in love with the brand, the marketing, and the looks of the gear many years ago, before I was even into hifi. It is just a bonus that the MC462 has great specs.

If I'm able to hear distortion and I come to regret owning this tube preamp, time will tell. I can always trade the C2700 in for a C53, which does have much better distortion numbers. At the moment, I'm guessing when musical content is playing, I won't be able to hear the distortion. Maybe I will even like the distortion if I do hear it. But anyway, distortion numbers aren't as important to me as you guys. That's your judgement call if you want to say I don't actually care about high fidelity. I know I like music just as much as any of you.

 

[BDWoody]

Measured performance does not seem to justify the $9,000 price tag.

For a handful of brands, those don't necessarily go together. You arent looking for the best bargain performer if this is in your buying playground. You are looking for whatever makes you feel good that meets whatever your criteria are, and a sexy McIntosh stack can do that for sure.

Similar argument about Rolex and other luxury watch brands. They likely won't do much better than +/- 1/2 second per day (which is remarkable for a bunch of gears and springs) , but that really isn't the point.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

This has actually given some serious pause for thought. I may be able to negotiate with my dealer to simply replace my C2700 with a C53 at no cost. I know that he has extended such generosity to other customers, but since I am new, he may not do so with me. I don't think I will bother even if he did offer me this. I like the tubes... and the dozen knobs on the C53 is kind of not as visually appealing as the more understated clean look of the C2700.

 

[Bear123]

I chose the C2700 instead of the C53 because I wanted to try a tube preamp. I heard both the C53 and C2600 at my dealer and I couldn't hear a difference. I spent an hour switching back and forth on a pair of B&W 803 D3 and I literally couldn't tell a difference between the two. I spent a good 20 minutes trying to hear difference on a single Stevie Ray Vaughn track, swapping back and forth over and over. So based on that, I just choose the 'cooler' looking one.

I bought McIntosh for reasons that have nothing to do with performance. It was for the pride of ownership, mostly, and my extreme attraction to the McIntosh blue meters. I fell in love with the brand, the marketing, and the looks of the gear many years ago, before I was even into hifi. It is just a bonus that the MC462 has great specs.

If I'm able to hear distortion and I come to regret owning this tube preamp, time will tell. I can always trade the C2700 in for a C53, which does have much better distortion numbers. At the moment, I'm guessing when musical content is playing, I won't be able to hear the distortion. Maybe I will even like the distortion if I do hear it. But anyway, distortion numbers aren't as important to me as you guys. That's your judgement call if you want to say I don't actually care about high fidelity. I know I like music just as much as any of you.

Hey, thanks so much for you detailed reply. I was really hoping you wouldn't take offense to what I asked or how I asked it...was really just trying to illustrate why I was wondering. Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I think its really smart that you spent some time A/B'ing to make sure you could not detect any sonic compromises. I was not into audio at a time when tubes were a current thing, so I don't have the nostalgic draw to them that others may have, much like vinyl. But for those that do, I can see how having this in a modern, better performing device would be really cool.

Again, congrats on the new gear, enjoy!! And share some pics once setup.

 

[BDWoody]

This has actually given some serious pause for thought. I may be able to negotiate with my dealer to simply replace my C2700 with a C53 at no cost. I know that he has extended such generosity to other customers, but since I am new, he may not do so with me. I don't think I will bother even if he did offer me this. I like the tubes... and the dozen knobs on the C53 is kind of not as visually appealing as the more understated clean look of the C2700.

Maybe he'll let you take the other one for a home listen, now that he knows you aren't just a tire kicker...

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Hey, thanks so much for you detailed reply. I was really hoping you wouldn't take offense to what I asked or how I asked it...was really just trying to illustrate why I was wondering. Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I think its really smart that you spent some time A/B'ing to make sure you could not detect any sonic compromises. I was not into audio at a time when tubes were a current thing, so I don't have the nostalgic draw to them that others may have, much like vinyl. But for those that do, I can see how having this in a modern, better performing device would be really cool.

Again, congrats on the new gear, enjoy!! And share some pics once setup.

You're welcome. I did not take offense at all, everyone has the right to their own opinion. I don't even think you are wrong in this case. It's simply just two different approaches to enjoying oneself in this hobby. Wether one is more right or wrong is not really up for either of us to decide. at the end of the day I think we both enjoy our music. You might just come out ahead in the end monetary wise, though.

I modified my post to say thank you, by the way. I don't have very good social skills and forgot to think to say it. Sorry.

 

[Bear123]

You're welcome. I did not take offense at all, everyone has the right to their own opinion. I don't even think you are wrong in this case. It's simply just two different approaches to enjoying oneself in this hobby. Wether one is more right or wrong is not really up for either of us to decide. at the end of the day I think we both enjoy our music. You might just come out ahead in the end monetary wise, though.

I modified my post to say thank you, by the way. I don't have very good social skills and forgot to think to say it. Sorry.

No reason whatsoever for an apology. Tying in measured performance the way I did could have easily been taken the wrong way, so I'm glad you didn't. I definitely think measured performance needs to be taken with a grain of salt on electronics. For full disclosure, I have the Denon X3300 as an AVR as part of my only audio/video system. It meets my needs perfectly and I was a little disappointed when I saw how the 3500 measured here. (exact same thing as far as I can tell). However, after digging in a little further, I have come to believe that the AVR is sonically transparent in real life as long as I keep it below clipping, with distortion far below that produced by my reasonably good speakers even at moderate levels. In other words, I don't think I can hear the .005% distortion in the signal being fed to my speakers.

There are a lot of different specs listed about the C2700 on the mfr website, and I'm not really sure how to interpret all of them TBH. If you couldn't hear a difference despite really trying to, I think the pride of ownership and your satisfaction with the build quality and looks will have a far bigger effect on your satisfaction than what is likely to be inaudible distortion.

Comparatively, I recently purchased new speakers. I did base the decision primarily on measured performance since speakers, Imo, have by far the largest impact on what we hear. I narrowed things down to 3-4 different speakers that I felt would meet my needs in terms of measured sound quality. But I made my final selection based on how the speaker *looked*. Being really happy with what I felt was a really nice furniture grade tower speaker in terms of looks probably contributes more to how much I like how they sound than any marginal difference there might have been between my top selections.

Also, curious what your speakers are? At first I thought maybe JBL M2 but I think the waveguides don't look the same so maybe not.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

No reason whatsoever for an apology. Tying in measured performance the way I did could have easily been taken the wrong way, so I'm glad you didn't. I definitely think measured performance needs to be taken with a grain of salt on electronics. For full disclosure, I have the Denon X3300 as an AVR as part of my only audio/video system. It meets my needs perfectly and I was a little disappointed when I saw how the 3500 measured here. (exact same thing as far as I can tell). However, after digging in a little further, I have come to believe that the AVR is sonically transparent in real life as long as I keep it below clipping, with distortion far below that produced by my reasonably good speakers even at moderate levels. In other words, I don't think I can hear the .005% distortion in the signal being fed to my speakers.

There are a lot of different specs listed about the C2700 on the mfr website, and I'm not really sure how to interpret all of them TBH. If you couldn't hear a difference despite really trying to, I think the pride of ownership and your satisfaction with the build quality and looks will have a far bigger effect on your satisfaction than what is likely to be inaudible distortion.

Comparatively, I recently purchased new speakers. I did base the decision primarily on measured performance since speakers, Imo, have by far the largest impact on what we hear. I narrowed things down to 3-4 different speakers that I felt would meet my needs in terms of measured sound quality. But I made my final selection based on how the speaker *looked*. Being really happy with what I felt was a really nice furniture grade tower speaker in terms of looks probably contributes more to how much I like how they sound than any marginal difference there might have been between my top selections.

Also, curious what your speakers are? At first I thought maybe JBL M2 but I think the waveguides don't look the same so maybe not.

It's funny you have the X3300. My first amp when I got into this hobby was the Denon X3300H. I used it with a pair of KEF LS50. I appreciate your detailed response too. I agree with your assessment that speakers have more audible differences. What speakers did you get?

My speakers are JBL Synthesis 4367. They are essentially a consumer version of the M2, with a built in crossover network for use with your own amplifiers.

 

[Bear123]

It's funny you have the X3300. My first amp when I got into this hobby was the Denon X3300H. I used it with a pair of KEF LS50. I appreciate your detailed response too. I agree with your assessment that speakers have more audible differences. What speakers did you get?

My speakers are JBL Synthesis 4367. They are essentially a consumer version of the M2, with a built in crossover network for use with your own amplifiers.

Revel F36, and C25 center. Already had W263 in walls recently before the LCR were bought, so 5 channels of Revel. I think my subs are better than my speakers which helps a lot:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48e01911126b0004ca12ec?_k=bhi12s

 

[Doodski]

Firstly, thank you. I'm extremely proud to own this gear, mainly because it's the first time I ever purchased something in this hobby brand new. There is a special fuzzy feeling (at least for me) that you get knowing you are the first time owner of something, getting full manufacture support, and that you will be taken care of by your dealer. Perhaps most importantly, is establishing a relationship with that dealer with the possibility to home audition gear at no cost in the future.

I chose the C2700 instead of the C53 because I wanted to try a tube preamp. I heard both the C53 and C2600 at my dealer and I couldn't hear a difference. I spent an hour switching back and forth on a pair of B&W 803 D3 and I literally couldn't tell a difference between the two. I spent a good 20 minutes trying to hear difference on a single Stevie Ray Vaughn track, swapping back and forth over and over. So based on that, I just choose the 'cooler' looking one.

I bought McIntosh for reasons that have nothing to do with performance. It was for the pride of ownership, mostly, and my extreme attraction to the McIntosh blue meters. I fell in love with the brand, the marketing, and the looks of the gear many years ago, before I was even into hifi. It is just a bonus that the MC462 has great specs.

If I'm able to hear distortion and I come to regret owning this tube preamp, time will tell. I can always trade the C2700 in for a C53, which does have much better distortion numbers. At the moment, I'm guessing when musical content is playing, I won't be able to hear the distortion. Maybe I will even like the distortion if I do hear it. But anyway, distortion numbers aren't as important to me as you guys. That's your judgement call if you want to say I don't actually care about high fidelity. I know I like music just as much as any of you.

Wowowowzer. The big day hath arrived. Nice!

 

[Sal1950]

My speakers are JBL Synthesis 4367. They are essentially a consumer version of the M2, with a built in crossover network for use with your own amplifiers.

Big congrats on the new gear Mr dire, I'm Mc green with envy, both on the electronics and your 4367's, incredible speakers. I know you'll get many decades of awesome enjoyment from them.. That's a life-time rig you put together.
Now you just got to start saving up to add the additional pieces to make it a surround rig.