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Is lossy outdated in 2019 & onwards?

danadam

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I did go read the listening tests samples on HA where i show industrial/metal struggling.

Sunn O)))
Great... and no one has thrown TOS#8 at you there. What a surprise.

when your buds
My buds? Really?

Killer sample - Dead body collection, Merzbow, The Haters

LOL, HA removed my industrial samples were it needed above 160kbps to sound great. What a joke i show exotic music that stresses them they hide behind that not music instead of admitting lossy can't cover all content?.
I very much doubt anyone would bother if that was the only reason (assuming that anything was actually uploaded).

Your seriously asking for proof when your buds removed my samples because it hurt there weak ego's, that trolling there dude.
So far it looks more like your ego got hurt because of them ignoring your posts. Or did they remove posts too?
 

amirm

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That is a very interesting thread. I suggest everyone on this forum read the whole thread.
And here is what started it:
1566847140732.png
 

bravomail

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Ever since i switched to Flac wither on my PC or portable. I never understood the arguments by pro lossy users and even HA forums. Since they get super rude when lossy can't cover all music without issues even Opus still groans on some content.

I prefer AAC (set to ABR 320) to Opus. Opus reencodes 44kHz to 48kHz (changes in time domain). And strips lows and highs. Opus encoder primarily purpose was for phone voice enconding. It is not good for music. You can try and compare them both on your own. And make your own decision.
 

Julf

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I prefer AAC (set to ABR 320) to Opus. Opus reencodes 44kHz to 48kHz (changes in time domain). And strips lows and highs. Opus encoder primarily purpose was for phone voice enconding. It is not good for music. You can try and compare them both on your own. And make your own decision.

Opus is intended as a general purpose audio format. The resampling is transparent. Yes, do compare, in a proper double blind, but others have already: http://listening-test.coresv.net/results.htm
 

Soniclife

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Anyone want to guess if more music is consumed daily via lossy or lossless?
Spotify, all radio stations I know of, anything involving Bluetooth etc are all lossy, Vs a few weirdos like us lot, and old people playing CDs.

My money is on lossy winning by a mile, so not outdated or deprecated, I'd also argue that changing to lossless is the smallest possible upgrade people could make to their sound quality.

P.S. currently listening to a Bluetooth speaker in a very low bandwidth area, so low I'm surprised it's working at all.
 

amirm

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Well, according to that saga those quality values were arbitrarily given in purely informal way (all but V1 here and V1 here). Not very scientific if you asked me.
Well, it actually matched the reality based on my years of experience testing lossy codecs in general, and MP3 in the specific. Taking the graph out without any other data to back an alternate reality is not proper. Lossy codecs do approach an asymptote as bitrates increase:

AC-3 Stereo.png
 

Julf

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Also, 99.9% of the population can’t tell a difference between iTunes/Apple Music (256Kbps AAC) and lossless, using their own setups.

Ah, but that allows audiophiles to believe they belong to the 0.1%.
 

syn08

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I can't tell a difference between 192Kbps or higher MP3 and FLAC. FLACs are guaranteed 24-32 PCM bit resolution, and converted to MP3 by myself, using the LAME MP3 encoder. Tried on classic, folk, pop, industrial, punk, same foobar NULL result.

- Are there any serious studies telling my hearing is worse than X% of the average population?

- Would any "training" help? Before testing myself, I did lots of sighted training sessions, trying to figure out passages that would tell a difference (noise, timbre, sibilance, etc...) to no avail. Still NULL in foobar, but of course there is an infinite number of small details that could carry the difference, hence the question.

Side comment: I'm still running my NAS with DLNA, on a RAID1 SSD array, and VPN to it from any place on the planet. I was told I live in the past, but I don't feel comfortable putting anything regarding my information, preferences or habits in the cloud, up for mining for the owners. Enduring iCloud makes me sick enough.

P.S. I can tell 128Kbps or less MP3 pretty reliable from the FLAC original.
 
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Blumlein 88

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I can't tell a difference between 192Kbps or higher MP3 and FLAC. FLACs are guaranteed 24-32 PCM bit resolution, and converted to MP3 by myself, using LAME MP3 encoder. Tried on classic, folk, pop, industrial, punk, same foobar NULL result.

- Are there any serious studies telling my hearing is worse than X% of the average population?

- Would any "training" help? Before testing myself, I did lots of sighted training sessions, trying to figure out passages that would tell a difference (noise, timbre, sibilance, etc...) to no avail. Still NULL in foobar, but of course there is an infinite number of small details that could carry the difference, hence the question.

Side comment: I'm still running my NAS with DLNA, on a RAID1 SSD array, and VPN to it from any place on the planet. I was told I live in the past, but I don't feel comfortable putting anything regarding my information, preferences or habits in the cloud, up for mining for the owners. Enduring iCloud makes me sick enough.
What was your method of listening using foobar? By that I mean did you isolate short segments of only a few seconds? If you listen to even 30 seconds before switching your echoic memory is gone and you'll be much less perceptive. If you limit it to 5 seconds, and switch between them you may get some results. Yes, this is not how you'd listen and you'll hear differences that in normal listening you'll never hear. But it sets a best possible baseline for your hearing.
 

syn08

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What was your method of listening using foobar? By that I mean did you isolate short segments of only a few seconds? If you listen to even 30 seconds before switching your echoic memory is gone and you'll be much less perceptive. If you limit it to 5 seconds, and switch between them you may get some results. Yes, this is not how you'd listen and you'll hear differences that in normal listening you'll never hear. But it sets a best possible baseline for your hearing.

About 30 seconds listening sessions, I was trying also to follow the musical context, not only a certain musical phrase. I'll try shorter sessions of say 5 seconds, but then finding such short samples that would best illustrate differences would be difficult. Plust that it would likely transform the whole exercise more in an academic experiment since, as you say, indeed it would have nothing to do with how we normally listen.

So is there an objective and universally accepted MP3 encoding bit rate under which the lossy MP3 compression is considered unacceptable compared with a 24-32 bit PCM stream with losless compression?
 
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amirm

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- Are there any serious studies telling my hearing is worse than X% of the average population?
Average population does poorly on detecting compression artifacts so in that regard, you are fine. :)

- Would any "training" help? Before testing myself, I did lots of sighted training sessions, trying to figure out passages that would tell a difference (noise, timbre, sibilance, etc...) to no avail. Still NULL in foobar, but of course there is an infinite number of small details that could carry the difference, hence the question.
There is. You need to start compressing content to much lower bit rates initially where the artifacts are obvious. Once there, you gradually climb up in bitrate. Applaud is hard to encode as are pure voices. Solo guitar strings are also hard.
 

Blumlein 88

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About 30 seconds listening sessions, I was trying also to follow the musical context, not only a certain musical phrase. I'll try shorter sessions of say 5 seconds, but then finding such short samples that would best illustrate differences would be difficult. Plust that it would likely transform the whole exercise more in an academic experiment since, as you say, indeed it would have nothing to do with how we normally listen.

So is there an objective and universally accepted MP3 encoding bit rate under which the lossy MP3 compression is considered unacceptable compared with a 24-32 bit PCM stream with losless compression?
If you want to keep it to 30 second snips, I'd suggest setting bitrate ridiculously low so it's easy to pass in foobar. Then increase it a step at a time till you don't hear it.
 

watchnerd

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Opus VBR 160kb/s is good enough for listening. Even for 44.1/88.2kHz source material resampled to 48kHz with SoX. However, I keep and copy everything on my local storage at the original quality for convenience.

Is there any streaming service that uses Opus?

Because aside from mobile streaming, I have no use for lossy codecs at home.
 

BillG

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digicidal

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In my case the primary reason to never use lossy rips of my CDs comes down entirely to flexibility. If I want to put a ton of music on my phone and don't have the room - then I can choose to convert to 128kbps AAC (or if an MP3 only player to that). If I bring my iPod along... then I can decide a better compromise. If one of my CDs gets damaged... then I can burn a bit-perfect copy. A great deal of the time I listen to music (in my car) I'm listening to 320kbps AAC... because it doesn't play any lossless formats - despite paying extra for the Mark Levinson upgrade. :confused:

Any improvements made to lossy encoders (although at this point they're basically perfected) I can take advantage of by simply throwing everything in dBpoweramp batch converter. If I'd ripped everything to a lossy codec in the first place - I'd ether be comitted to that, having to re-rip 800 CDs again, or having a 2nd generation lossy of a lossy encoding to listen in a specific situation.

I guess if it doesn't make any sense to some people to only make lossless rips... does it make any sense for the studios to keep the original masters? They have the CDs right? :facepalm:
 

Bounce44.1

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In my case the primary reason to never use lossy rips of my CDs comes down entirely to flexibility. If I want to put a ton of music on my phone and don't have the room - then I can choose to convert to 128kbps AAC (or if an MP3 only player to that). If I bring my iPod along... then I can decide a better compromise. If one of my CDs gets damaged... then I can burn a bit-perfect copy. A great deal of the time I listen to music (in my car) I'm listening to 320kbps AAC... because it doesn't play any lossless formats - despite paying extra for the Mark Levinson upgrade. :confused:

Any improvements made to lossy encoders (although at this point they're basically perfected) I can take advantage of by simply throwing everything in dBpoweramp batch converter. If I'd ripped everything to a lossy codec in the first place - I'd ether be comitted to that, having to re-rip 800 CDs again, or having a 2nd generation lossy of a lossy encoding to listen in a specific situation.

I guess if it doesn't make any sense to some people to only make lossless rips... does it make any sense for the studios to keep the original masters? They have the CDs right? :facepalm:
Agreed. Also having control over the conversion- dither, input level etc- is important. Archive in the highest bitrate and depth. Streaming is always dependant on the weakest link in the signal chain and whether the DAC is resampling or not.

I personally like 24 bit 48khz PCM but I have been known to enjoy MP3 on ocasion
 
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