Is Jay talking about Amir?

[SeriousApple]

^^^
This message was sponsored by Jay.

Just kidding or am I?

Im not jay i can tell you that much.

 

[redshift]

Im not jay i can tell you that much.

I believe you.

 

[kotmj]

I have captured also in-room response data for almost two decades so adequate data exists. Few of those measurements were visible on my web site for more than a decade, and some ASR members might remember them. Speakers were both conventional boxed and experimental - usually unidirectional full range cardioid. None of published responses had room EQ. Just decent positioning of speakers and listening point/mic if target was quite balanced response for listening (not for investigating e.g. immunity to different random positions of speakers or mic). In one case (2006) balanced sound was reached also in 16 m^2 living room of concrete flat so building/house doesn't have to absorp or diffuse everything at LF.
In addition, our local hifi forum has thread for in-room response measurements including some nice results without EQ. I'm not globally the only one who has succeeded to arrange decent measured balance without any electrical device for EQ. As already said, it needs suitable environment, speakers, work and more work for positioning, and usually some lock too, but certainly possible.

Your output on this forum indicates just narrow view to reality. Mostly simplified theories with self-composed constraints. I will not start to teach you and prove something which is clear for quite many of us. So change your attitude, stop playing objective audio god, try to understand others and study audio systems in wider variety of environments and setups. If this sounds unreasonable, you are free to remove my username from ASR right away.

Yes. I find some here strangely dismissive of bodies of knowledge not in Toole's ambit.

 

[q3cpma]

Spinorama goes completely out the window for unconventional designs.

Why? Just because those designs do badly on it? You don't attacks standards on practice, only on theory.

As for "preference", the entire research was sponsored, driven, and undertaken by employees with a vested interest in producing and selling loudspeakers for their bosses.

This is wrong. A major part of it is a handbook style compilation of prior research. And to be honest, the "commercial incentive" argument is a bit weak, because anyone can tell you that marketing is 99% of the market power, at least in the "normal" Hi-Fi segment.

Harman produced some great products for sure, but they vacuumed up innovators, pulled them into the corporate line and pursued a commercial agenda under the guise of "research" for decades. What was Bose's catchline again? "Better sound through research". What research specifically, because it was hideously flawed based on the products they dished out...

I won't say you're wrong, because it really is impossible, but do you have some concrete reasons to say/think this is the case?

Yes. I find some here strangely dismissive of bodies of knowledge not in Toole's ambit.

Are you sure? To me, it looks like more dismissal of anything not backed by the scientific method (theory and proof).

 

[SeriousApple]

I believe you.

View attachment 141282

this is the guy you should be going after. He is super negative says specs dont matter and says all dacs sounds the same. He is clearly taking shots at ASR comunity. He said 6 watts at 16 ohms is useless he doesnt have any clue that it translates to more power at higher impeadnces. He is the most toxic chanel ive seen on youtube. He will go after top rated asr dacs and amps it seems like. By the way nice drawing!!

 

[restorer-john]

If Amir wants to be transparent with the donation, what he can do is post monthly all the members that donated (with names being scrambled but do tell every donor their scrambled id). Those members that donated can then PM if their respective scrambled names did not appear or if there is amount correction (if they want). Us ASR members can visibly see how much donation ASR gets every month. I would think this info could be beneficial ie if members decided that Amir is not getting enough...more donation can be given by sympathizers. Just my 2 cents.

We've had similar discussions in the past and they lead to nought. Transparency would be good. Like auctioning off all the 'samples' to the highest bidder after they are discontinued.

Realistically, stuff gets provided by manufacturers, members, some of it on loan, some of it 'not required for return', etc. I may be naive, but I'm prepared to bet that Amir isn't going to be (too much) corrupted by "free gifts" and "samples". He has way bigger fish to fry.

 

[redshift]

We've had similar discussions in the past and they lead to nought. Transparency would be good. Like auctioning off all the 'samples' to the highest bidder after they are discontinued.

Realistically, stuff gets provided by manufacturers, members, some of it on loan, some of it 'not required for return', etc. I may be naive, but I'm prepared to bet that Amir isn't going to be (too much) corrupted by 'free gifts" and "samples". He has way bigger fish to fry.

It is simple; if it measures bad nothing gets posted, or another revision shows up with the bugs fixed.

I’m ok with that level of “corruption”, that way I don’t have to wade through reviews of garbage.

 

[redshift]

this is the guy you should be going after. He is super negative says specs dont matter and says all dacs sounds the same. He is clearly taking shots at ASR comunity. He said 6 watts at 16 ohms is useless he doesnt have any clue that it translates to more power at higher impeadnces. He is the most toxic chanel ive seen on youtube. He will go after top rated asr dacs and amps it seems like. By the way nice drawing!!

Shameless plug. You prankster you.

 

[SeriousApple]

Shameless plug. You prankster you.

whatever dude way to haze a new member. I got hater shades on. Im staring to think you have jays face mask and your this guy why shits on asr and your putting shade on me so you can be spotless.

 

[redshift]

whatever dude way to haze a new member. I got hater shades on. Im staring to think you have jays face mask and your this guy why shits on asr and your putting shade on me so you can be spotless. View attachment 141295

No hate, all love, drama and comedy.

Chill out. Keep posting.

 

[SeriousApple]

No hate, all love, drama and comedy.

Chill out. Keep posting.

Thanks

 

[kimmosto]

What is your point, anyway? That pointing out that EQ is almost always mandatory for LF is "offensive" or something?

Just asking for clarification to conflicting messages.

Why are you painting yourself as persecuted?

Not entirely sure. Maybe I'm just frustrated that I have to keep secrets while some other(s) seem to be too biased, lazy or ignorant to be valuable by revealing comprehensive data.

Nobody denies that nonlinear and time distortion can have an importance, but...

Everything after "but" is the problem. Difficult to understand why several features with some importance is totally ignored. Not good enough reason to continue with amplitude responses and THD only on speaker forum while much more is instantly available from measurement system. Just save and publish without caring is it audible and significant for individual.

 

[Blaspheme]

I feel that there's not many forums left for me anymore. Many...most of the big and significant speaker manufacturers are my clients. In addition, I can't say anything negative about the rest either no matter is it proven by science or just my subjective opinion based on listening impressions because I'm also designer of commercial speakers.
With that background I'm quite allergic to ASR forum where some part of the science is picked, scored and resistance to widen the view and investigations to less significant features exists though they are audible or perceivable for sure proven by science. Measured and published slice of the features could be the most significant, but it should be self evident that "the most significant" does not equal to "all significant" in audio scene. Limiting science to very basic studies and features such as amplitude response alone is not respectable imo. First step is to open mental lock that spinorama rules sound quality exclusively and preference rating is somehow legitimate (with correlation of 0.70 between the predicted and measured preference ratings / US patent...). No one knows all possible significant and measurable features so I'm not requiring "everything possible". Just couple of steps wider view to reality and requirements which should lead to wider range of investigations/measurements. Correlations can be searched later if someone has resources.

I know nothing about March Audio/Zaphodbeeblebrox cases, and not afraid about my designs and tools either. Should be quite widely known that my simulator might be the first one supporting optimising of speaker with spinorama and quasi 3D measurements, and design methods based on measurements and simulations.

Well, don't be put off by Amir at least. He's not the best communicator. Especially in written forum posts. The reviews are basic, don't expect too much from them. There is ample good (and not-so-good) discussion in the forum generally. Also, many "scientists" here are engineers and technicians. Americans tend to think they are the same thing. Allow for that.

 

[CMB]

Sorry guys...

It's probably just me, but I agreed with just about everything Jay said. It's about speakers... not electronics.
In short.. he says measurements matter, they should be done properly and for speakers those measurements are really hard to interpret aside from those that know them well. It is also hard to predict how they will sound in your room to your ears.
Jay states measurements are a tool that can narrow down a long list of options and that's certainly true.

The 'tape measure thing' he states is a bit weird at first glance but in the end what he means is that once you have speakers they must be positioned correctly and use measurements when experimenting so you can pick the optimal position and after the experiments you can use the tape measure and plots you made to put it in that optimal position.

Jay is not talking about Amir imo. He talks about speakers, measurements, positioning and listening tests in general and that these all matter.

Actually, this thread made me watch the whole video to check (not really efficient invested time) and I totally agree with "Solderdude" on its different answers/interventions here.

I watch this guys videos sometimes, because I enjoy presentations of new products (I even watch commercials).
No one is condemned to watch them, but anyone can decide for himself to ignore those.
I don't expect any scientific presentation from him, when I watch this.
You have to adapt your expectations to what is presented to you and be critical by yourself.
There is always something to take out, up to your good judgement to decide what you want to take and what you can leave.
If it is only to acknowledge that there may exist opinions that you don't share.

On the other hand, I read daily this forum and even more than daily, for good reasons!
Objectively, what I measure the best is that I don't understand enough on many of its deeper technical parts.
Despite that, I spent so much time reading here, because I value the strong technical expertise, the aim for sincere objectiveness, science based approach and the good will of improving and share/spreed knowledge.

Let us try to be preserved that objectiveness of this nice and exceptional forum, as it is basically it's " strengths" and try to not fall into the same bias as the common forums.

For me, the only constructive way, you can fight what you consider to be ignorance, bad faith, etc. would be by proving objectively the wrong and the right on the subject (not on the person).

Adding unproven interpretations/assumptions, bias, bad feelings, maybe defensiv feelings/language; comment on incorrect recorded facts, or even comment without having listened entirely to the video with a minimum of objectivity; or worse, to fall into scientific arrogance, bashing, would just weaken the claim of science and objectivism of this forum.

In contrary, it might just give more importance to the subjectivist reviews, than they actually deserve.
It risks to push this forum down to the same level as others.

No need of trench warfare between subjective and objective approach, useless debates...
I would suggest to choose your fights and to concentrate on with what might really counts here and makes things go forward (objectiveness, measures, audio science, gears, fun, science, sharing, ...)

 

[q3cpma]

Everything after "but" is the problem. Difficult to understand why several features with some importance is totally ignored. Not good enough reason to continue with amplitude responses and THD only on speaker forum while much more is instantly available from measurement system. Just save and publish without caring is it audible and significant for individual.

Because there are logical arguments for this:
* IMD is basically reduced as you go from 2 to 3 or 4-way (incl. subwoofer), it isn't really necessary to measure it beyond knowing these facts, I'd say.
* Concerning phase/GD, I think research is lacking but there is quite the consensus on how minor it is; it's even less important when you consider than only point sources can be truly time aligned in practice (i.e. not only on a single plane).

So, do you have research to convince us to share you interest? I only know of Genelec's recent GD paper. I didn't read it, but from its abstract, I doubt it pertains to the psychoacoustical importance of GD, only its audibility threshold.

 

[Blaspheme]

Your output does not indicate much logic. Try to decide which one is correct or clarify your writing.



Well spotted this time. That's exaclty what I wrote and promised.



Research and reality you refer does not cover special gradient radiators and/or complex listening environments so I think that you know nothing...not much about combination of conditions and possibilities available for me in our house - and many others. Your reality is probably as narrow as your output and part of science you have picked for ASR members.

I also suggest reading my first reply to you. There was clearly mentioned also personal tolerance; how high response variations are accepted by the listener. You're really playing some god if one does not have right to decide personal tolerance and refuse electrical EQ no matter what measured variation at LF is. It's possible (though not probable) to hit within tolerance visible in Olive's small study about preferred in-room response without electrical EQ. Acoustically large complex/diffusive/partly absorptive environments with advanced radiators offer also some freedom; possibilities to optimize setup caring less about LF and more about some other quality features.

Anyway, I've had enough of this forum thanks to you. Please erase me.

Ok, I did 'like' this, then thought that might be misread. I like the post, but don't like that you should leave. If that makes sense.

 

[raif71]

Your output does not indicate much logic. Try to decide which one is correct or clarify your writing.



Well spotted this time. That's exaclty what I wrote and promised.



Research and reality you refer does not cover special gradient radiators and/or complex listening environments so I think that you know nothing...not much about combination of conditions and possibilities available for me in our house - and many others. Your reality is probably as narrow as your output and part of science you have picked for ASR members.

I also suggest reading my first reply to you. There was clearly mentioned also personal tolerance; how high response variations are accepted by the listener. You're really playing some god if one does not have right to decide personal tolerance and refuse electrical EQ no matter what measured variation at LF is. It's possible (though not probable) to hit within tolerance visible in Olive's small study about preferred in-room response without electrical EQ. Acoustically large complex/diffusive/partly absorptive environments with advanced radiators offer also some freedom; possibilities to optimize setup caring less about LF and more about some other quality features.

Anyway, I've had enough of this forum thanks to you. Please erase me.

 

[Spkrdctr]

We all know that in the end, do you like what you hear? For example, a speaker can measure very well, be very good looking , but if you listen to it and don't like it, it will not be enjoyed. A great flat speaker is put into a room and then when you look at the frequency response in room, it is horrible. Today we can do a lot of "room correction" that was unavailable years ago. Anyways, the point is that measurements are not everything. They do help you decide what type of speaker to audition. I would say measurements CAN weed out the speakers that have problems even before you put them in a room. But, after that you will ultimately have to go by if you like the sound. I "think" that was what he was trying to say. No one listens to measurements. We DO use measurements to get something that "should" sound good and then give it a try. So measurements matter (well except for DACS and headphone amps!). But in the very end, the buying decision will be made by the consumer if they like the sound. Showroom curves on speakers are notorious for enticing buyers to buy speakers that get tiring very quickly.

Oh, and that dig on headphone amps and DACS was just to see if you actually read the post that far!

 

[Blaspheme]

I got my terrible 80s bands* mixed up and thought you'd posted this one:

*retrospectively, I may have liked either at the time

 

[Savi]

Anyway, I've had enough of this forum thanks to you. Please erase me.

Its a pitty if specialist like you leave this forum. My feeling is that the game is over for dac and amp which perform way beyond human threshold.
But there is still a lot to understand with speakers, drivers, room interactions, EQ, parameters which matter vs others (IMD, linear distorsion, group delay), etc... VituixCAD is a game changer in this area, I still have a lot to discover in it but thanks for your work.