Is it worth upgrading or is it almost imperceptible?

[kiyu]

Hi All,

I have a Topping Dx7 pro, I am really happy about it, but I was looking for something better, first I tough SMSL su 9 or Gustard x16, I am tempted with D90se but $900 too much for me, a couple of days ago I saw the top of the line from smsl VMV D1se 620$ looks ok, but same ESS 9038, any owner of d1se maybe could bring some light?
did anyone try at least Su-9 vs DX7 pro?

Amplifier,
only problem I am aware of the with Dx7pro is the 6/9 ohms of impedance output which is not great. so I found 2 options sabaj a20h or wait a bit longer and check that new smsl HO200 (but is a bit expensive) that a20h is more than enough.


Thanks!

 

[JJB70]

Only you can determine what is audible, unfortunately to do a level matched double blind test you need to have both the alternative you are thinking of and your existing unit which is difficult unless you buy from a dealer happy to accept a return.
My own personal view is that audible differences between digital sources, DACs and amplifiers are so small as to be not worth worrying about, provided that the amplifier is appropriately specified for the load. Even if you can discern a difference doing a critical listening ABX I would be surprised if it amounted to a noticeable difference when just listening to music. Consider your speakers and how they are set up and headphones if you want to explore where you can make an audible gain.
However, it's not just about SW, and if you want more features, better industrial design, better build quality or just something you want then if people were honest I suspect those are what drive purchase decisions more than SQ for electronic components.

 

[AnalogSteph]

OP, what are you actually doing with the DX7Pro? Why are you concerned about headphone output impedance when at the next step you're asking for comparison to the SU-9, a pure DAC that doesn't even have a headphone output?

While it may seem depressing that even the E50 is slightly better these days, the DX7Pro remains a very capable DAC, with little incentive to upgrade on that front. Dynamic range is still on par with any remotely affordable (sub-$2000 or so) DAC of the early 2000s, and DAC ICs capable of delivering its distortion performance / SINAD at 1 kHz did not even exist until 2008/9. Even the headphone output, while not the right thing for IEMs, can still drive a multitude of headphones just fine.

In this situation, I would have a very hard look at all the rest of the system before upgrading the DAC. As stated, DACs have a habit of being audibly transparent these days so will generally make for a very disappointing upgrade on the sound quality front. Transducers and rooms are where it's at, maybe the amplifier side.

 

[Ron Texas]

There is nothing wrong with your DAC. Have you tried room EQ? What's the rest of your system? What sounds wrong?

 

[DVDdoug]

only problem I am aware of the with Dx7pro is the 6/9 ohms of impedance output which is not great.

Output impedance has two related effects - It creates a voltage divider with the load so the lower the headphone impedance the lower the signal. That, by itself, isn't a big deal if you can still get enough loudness.

But, headphone impedance isn't "flat" so you get a bump in the frequency response where the impedance is higher and a dip where the impedance is lower. The dips are generally worse because the lower impedance is closer to the amplifier's output impedance and the voltage divider ratio is worse. If the impedance of your particular headphones doesn't vary much across the frequency range this won't be a big problem.

With higher impedance headphones (or lower source impedance) both issues are minimized.

As you may know, output impedance is rarely published (by the manufacturer). It's more common to get a recommended headphone impedance (which isn't that useful). The same is true with power amplifiers... They give you the recommended (or minimum) speaker impedance, and sometimes they give the damping factor from which you can calculate the output impedance.

 

[kiyu]

There is nothing wrong with your DAC. Have you tried room EQ? What's the rest of your system? What sounds wrong?

most of the time I use headphones I got a couple, alex, senn 660s, zeus, DT 1990 on it way, and a couple of IEMS (hana, aria),
Speaker, I have a 5.1 Klipsch with a Denon avr. mostly for movies.

 

[kiyu]

Output impedance has two related effects - It creates a voltage divider with the load so the lower the headphone impedance the lower the signal. That, by itself, isn't a big deal if you can still get enough loudness.

But, headphone impedance isn't "flat" so you get a bump in the frequency response where the impedance is higher and a dip where the impedance is lower. The dips are generally worse because the lower impedance is closer to the amplifier's output impedance and the voltage divider ratio is worse. If the impedance of your particular headphones doesn't vary much across the frequency range this won't be a big problem.

With higher impedance headphones (or lower source impedance) both issues are minimized.

As you may know, output impedance is rarely published (by the manufacturer). It's more common to get a recommended headphone impedance (which isn't that useful). The same is true with power amplifiers... They give you the recommended (or minimum) speaker impedance, and sometimes they give the damping factor from which you can calculate the output impedance.

some of the headphones I have are really low ohms, Hamonicdyne Zeus is around 64 ohms and it came with 4.4mm (usually I used it with 6.5), Focal elex is also 64 ohms. and well Iems that I have some.
beyerdinamics 250 ohms should be fine, but I don't have those yet.
maybe I just need a basic headphone amplifiear for those and that's it?

 

[3125b]

The 6 ohms of the DX7 Pro are really not that high, even with the Focals and such you‘d probably have less then 0.5dB change in FR vs. 0.1 ohms output. RAA has a tool to calculate the relative change, but I can‘t find that on mobile, will link it later.
The only headphones where it would really make a difference are multi-driver IEMs.
50mV SNR isn‘t great at 81dB, with very sensitive headphones an additional amp with a very low noise floor may or may not make a difference. A different DAC is not what you need.

 

[charleski]

There is nothing wrong with your DAC. Have you tried room EQ? What's the rest of your system? What sounds wrong?

Optimising your systems’s EQ is the most effective way to get an improvement in sound quality you can actually hear (as opposed to spending $$$ on a new piece of electronics then trying to convince yourself you didn’t waste money and can hear a difference).

 

[0bs3rv3r]

I have a Topping Dx7 pro, I am really happy about it, but I was looking for something better,

Define better? Have you heard something that sounds better? Given your question (is it barely perceptible) I would guess you haven 't. The biggest diffference I hear between digital systems through headphones, is the headphones themselves, and that difference can be largely removed with judicial use of equalisation. Spend some time in those areas and you may not want/need to upgrade.

 

[abdo123]

Imperceptible.

 

[antcollinet]

Dacs are a done deal - you won't get any audible improvement from changing the dac, unless it is doing a really bad job with the headphone amp. For your external amp / speakers there is no difference between even vaguely competent dacs to hear.

You already have multiple headphone options to try, and they will make a far bigger difference than any change to your dac - or as others have pointed out EQ.

What is your source? If a mac, then sound source from Rogue Amoeba has built in EQ profiles for some headphones, including at least 2 or 3 of yours (senn and dt) if you give me the full model of the Alex and Zeus, I can check those for you.

You can also load custom profiles.

Sound source is $40 plus local taxes.

 

[antcollinet]

If you suspect the built in headphone amp is not as good as it could be then look at the review of the Topping A90. Use that with your current Dac, and you will have what ammounts to perfect transparency to source.

 

[racePigeon]

Hi All,

I have a Topping Dx7 pro, I am really happy about it, but I was looking for something better, first I tough SMSL su 9 or Gustard x16, I am tempted with D90se but $900 too much for me, a couple of days ago I saw the top of the line from smsl VMV D1se 620$ looks ok, but same ESS 9038, any owner of d1se maybe could bring some light?
did anyone try at least Su-9 vs DX7 pro?

Amplifier,
only problem I am aware of the with Dx7pro is the 6/9 ohms of impedance output which is not great. so I found 2 options sabaj a20h or wait a bit longer and check that new smsl HO200 (but is a bit expensive) that a20h is more than enough.


Thanks!

Heard another owner of the Dx7 pro describing the sound as lifeless.

I would suggest you try the RME ADI-2 DAC and see what happens.

 

[daftcombo]

Heard another owner of the Dx7 pro describing the sound as lifeless.

It is a neutral DAC. If the music is lifeless, the sound will be lifeless. If not, it won't.

 

[kiyu]

Heard another owner of the Dx7 pro describing the sound as lifeless.

I would suggest you try the RME ADI-2 DAC and see what happens.

I can't find a bad comment of the RME ADI 2, everyone is super happy,
unfortunately, that's 1200u$s which is too much for me at least for now.

 

[Foulchet]

From my personal not-so serious blind test (I mean that I level-match roughly with an Apple Watch), DAC themselves sound the same unless they lack voltage/power when plugged into some amplifiers (like the iPhone dongle), from ESS9028Pro (idac-6 mk2) to motherboard acl chip.
Even if it is not popular there, "lifeless" can be cured with either a tube amp (HD560S sounds like heaven with it) or changing headphones for mass-market ones which are more prone to acknowledge psychoacoustics and tastes, especially in basses. EQ also I guess but I do not EQ personnaly.
Amplifiers might have very minor effects on headphones, like an AKG K712 Pro sounded a little bit more clean with an iHa-6 (which is a power beast) but it was far from night and day, not worth an investment by itself.