Is it true that having both a solid-state amp and a tube amp offers the best of both worlds?

[SuicideSquid]

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I recently came across several YouTube videos discussing this audio paradigm.

I’ve just purchased the Meze Empyrean II headphones along with the JDS Labs DAC/amp, and the combination is fantastic. I followed recommendations from this forum to make my choice, but now I’m starting to wonder—should I aim for something more, or do all amps sound similar?

Tubes are great for guitar amplifiers, microphone preamps, etc., where you're intentionally trying to colour the sound for musical effect.

When you're listening back to a finished recording, that work has already been done by the musicians, producers, and recording engineer. If you pile more tubes on top of that, you're just colouring the sound further.

Think of it like camera lenses for a film. A director may choose a yellow gel to tint the image he or she is capturing in a particular scene to set a particular mood. But when you watch it back on your TV, you want your TV to be neutrally-calibrated, so that yellow-tinted scene shows up properly yellow, and a blue-tinted scene shows up properly blue, and a natural daylight scene shows colours naturally, as director intended. No one puts a piece of amber-tinted glass in front of his TV and then says the picture is better now because it's "warmer". That would be insane.

Tube amps are like that piece of glass. They block you from accurately hearing what the artist and recording engineer intended you to hear. Tube amps are much more likely to add audible distortion, roll off high frequencies early, and have a higher noise floor than solid state amps that are audibly transparent, 'tinting the glass' when it should be transparent.

As to the "do all amps sound the same" question - yes, with a big caveat. All properly-engineered amplifiers that are not being driven to clipping/distortion will sound the same. In fact, if you're a really good engineer and you're working with low-powered devices (like headphones) you can even get a tube amp to sound transparent. If you push amps out of spec, or if you have a poorly-designed amp (both of which are usually the case with tube amps), you will start to hear audible differences between different amplifiers.

There are many options for completely transparent headphone amplifiers that will not clip or distort until you're well past the level that will damage your hearing and your headphones, for only a few hundred dollars these days.

 

[kyuu]

The question is, what is it you are expecting the tubes to provide that the solid-state amplification does not? Be specific. Things like "musicality", PRAT, and other subjectivist terms unfortunately don't tell us anything.

Ultimately, you'll find that there is no answer or that perhaps you want a specific kind of distortion or frequency response "correction" that comes from the tube amp's interaction with the speaker impedance. Whatever the case, the tube amp is the wrong tool for the job objectively speaking. But if your brain is biased to only enjoy sound when you see some "light bulbs" sticking up out of your amp, do as you will.

 

[olieb]

and the combination is fantastic.

This is where you should have stopped IMO.

but now I’m starting to wonder

This is quite natural, we all know this, but my recommendation still is: don't do it, don't wonder.
Instead use the effort and the money to look for some new recordings, new performers, new music. THAT will actually make a difference, bring you some enrichment, hopefully exciting and joyful. Going on a quest for a better amp not so much.

 

[Laika2]

In a large way tubes are tone controls, people swap tubes to get a different sound (Tone, Lack of Emphasis or increase in Emphasis). The current method is get the speaker flat to the room and then do the details (house curve, personal emphasis or nothing). Also you have to let most tubes warm up for a half hour they say to produce the desired sound, they don't do it cold. Want to listen to something, plan ahead and turn your unit on a half hour before you listen even if you want to now.

DO these amps do that, I am not sure how the tubes are incorporated. BUT why pay more for tone control tubes when you can buy a much better solid state amp for less. If you want real tone controls if possible use X32 or Dirac.

Good luck, not something I would even think about doing but if you do I hope you get the bump in quality you want. I will say tubes amps a hybrids often look cool as hell. The only thing I will buy that looks cool (and first of all has the specs I want) is a turntable. Don't know why, some are such works of art.

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I recently came across several YouTube videos discussing this audio paradigm.

I’ve just purchased the Meze Empyrean II headphones along with the JDS Labs DAC/amp, and the combination is fantastic. I followed recommendations from this forum to make my choice, but now I’m starting to wonder—should I aim for something more, or do all amps sound similar?

I reached out to the Meze team for suggestions on the best audio setup within a limited budget of $1,500 USD. They responded with a few recommendations:

1. Schiit Valhalla 3 + Schiit Bifrost
2. Feliks Audio Echo MK II + Topping E70
3. Burson Conductor 3X Performance

One of these options features a tube amplifier, which piqued my interest. I began exploring and found the Cayin brand and their HA-2A and HA-3A models. Has anyone had experience with these?

I appreciate any recommendations, experiences, or insights you might have on this topic.

Cheers!

 

[eddantes]

If you want esoteric eye-candy and UX - sure - get some tubes. Look cool (are hot) and are a neat discussion item.

OTOH - if you want accurate sound, then you are better off getting a modern amplifier.

Accuracy in reproduction - isn't the only reason people enjoy hifi. Sometimes, it's the cool factor of using 70 year old gear to listen to modern music. But if accuracy is your goal - then no - no tubes.

 

[olds1959special]

Tubes are great for guitar amplifiers, microphone preamps, etc., where you're intentionally trying to colour the sound for musical effect.

When you're listening back to a finished recording, that work has already been done by the musicians, producers, and recording engineer. If you pile more tubes on top of that, you're just colouring the sound further.

Think of it like camera lenses for a film. A director may choose a yellow gel to tint the image he or she is capturing in a particular scene to set a particular mood. But when you watch it back on your TV, you want your TV to be neutrally-calibrated, so that yellow-tinted scene shows up properly yellow, and a blue-tinted scene shows up properly blue, and a natural daylight scene shows colours naturally, as director intended. No one puts a piece of amber-tinted glass in front of his TV and then says the picture is better now because it's "warmer". That would be insane.

Tube amps are like that piece of glass. They block you from accurately hearing what the artist and recording engineer intended you to hear. Tube amps are much more likely to add audible distortion, roll off high frequencies early, and have a higher noise floor than solid state amps that are audibly transparent, 'tinting the glass' when it should be transparent.

As to the "do all amps sound the same" question - yes, with a big caveat. All properly-engineered amplifiers that are not being driven to clipping/distortion will sound the same. In fact, if you're a really good engineer and you're working with low-powered devices (like headphones) you can even get a tube amp to sound transparent. If you push amps out of spec, or if you have a poorly-designed amp (both of which are usually the case with tube amps), you will start to hear audible differences between different amplifiers.

There are many options for completely transparent headphone amplifiers that will not clip or distort until you're well past the level that will damage your hearing and your headphones, for only a few hundred dollars these days.

Not to mention tubes were/are used in the studio so the tube sound may already be in the recording itself.

 

[somebodyelse]

Some people talk about tube "warmth", which is usually distortion.

Or the interaction of high power amp output impedance with variable speaker impedance changing the frequency response. Depending on the speaker's frequency response this could be an improvement, or make it even worse - an EQ lucky dip.

 

[Laika2]

Or the interaction of high power amp output impedance with variable speaker impedance changing the frequency response. Depending on the speaker's frequency response this could be an improvement, or make it even worse - an EQ lucky dip.

Agreed, sort of like random subwoofer placement. You might hit the magic spot or null central. A matter of luck which way it goes.

 

[Robin L]

I bought two of the cheapest Topping products about five years ago, the E30 DAC and the L30 headphone amp/preamp. The combo was about $250. The Topping L30 still has the lowest combined s/n ratio and THD here at ASR (last time I looked). I've used a lot of vintage gear (being vintage myself) and have found that some things keep getting better. I used a tube amp for Stax Earphones for decades. I guess there was something about those direct-coupled triodes that smoothed out some of the screech baked into the Stax Signature Pro headphones, but what I'm using now has far less distortion, way more bass and makes far fewer irritating noises.

If you want to experiment a bit, order a Topping L30 headphone amp, see if it sounds any different from what you're now using. Be sure to have return privileges. You should also try the same with tube headphone amps. I'm recommending the L30 because it has the lowest combined s/n ratio and THD available; it would give some idea of what "nothing" sounds like.

 

[frogmeat69]

The amp and DAC you have are just as good as anything else you can get, unless you need more power, which I guess you don't, since you said it sounds fantastic. That seems like a winner to me.
Maybe test the waters with other headphones? Or just enjoy the beautiful music, and the money you saved by not buying more? ( Trust me, it's always more if you're not careful)

 

[raif71]

 

[pablolie]

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I recently came across several YouTube videos discussing this audio paradigm.

I’ve just purchased the Meze Empyrean II headphones along with the JDS Labs DAC/amp, and the combination is fantastic. I followed recommendations from this forum to make my choice, but now I’m starting to wonder—should I aim for something more, or do all amps sound similar?

I reached out to the Meze team for suggestions on the best audio setup within a limited budget of $1,500 USD. They responded with a few recommendations:

1. Schiit Valhalla 3 + Schiit Bifrost
2. Feliks Audio Echo MK II + Topping E70
3. Burson Conductor 3X Performance

One of these options features a tube amplifier, which piqued my interest. I began exploring and found the Cayin brand and their HA-2A and HA-3A models. Has anyone had experience with these?

I appreciate any recommendations, experiences, or insights you might have on this topic.

Cheers!

How do you connect *both* to speakers? Bi-amping I guess, but how? Just curious about that, even though I am skeptical about the premise.

 

[antcollinet]

should I aim for something more

Not if more equals tube amp.

Either you get something well designed that sounds as near as dammit the same as a solid state amp - but costs much more and needs regular tube replacement - also expensive.

Or you get something with excessive distortion - and/or a non flat frequency response - that also costs much more and needs regular tube replacement.

 

[frogmeat69]

How do you connect *both* to speakers? Bi-amping I guess, but how? Just curious about that, even though I am skeptical about the premise.

He's running headphones.

 

[solderdude]

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I recently came across several YouTube videos discussing this audio paradigm.

I’ve just purchased the Meze Empyrean II headphones along with the JDS Labs DAC/amp, and the combination is fantastic. I followed recommendations from this forum to make my choice, but now I’m starting to wonder—should I aim for something more, or do all amps sound similar?

I reached out to the Meze team for suggestions on the best audio setup within a limited budget of $1,500 USD. They responded with a few recommendations:

1. Schiit Valhalla 3 + Schiit Bifrost
2. Feliks Audio Echo MK II + Topping E70
3. Burson Conductor 3X Performance

One of these options features a tube amplifier, which piqued my interest. I began exploring and found the Cayin brand and their HA-2A and HA-3A models. Has anyone had experience with these?

I appreciate any recommendations, experiences, or insights you might have on this topic.

Cheers!

When you ask Meze and ask them for recommendations with a budget of $ 3000 or even $ 6000 or better yet $ 500.- you'll get a different list.
Chances are there will be a tube amp in each set of recommendations.

When you ask for a set of $ 100.- max. you can even find 'tube amps' in the recommendations.

The reason is that people like to know about nice looking 'tube amps' and like to read words like 'organic, smooth, analog, warm' etc which is associated with tubes (with some truth in it with certain speaker amp designs).

The amp you have is fine.

I know it feels 'weird' that you could perfectly drive a $ 2k headphones using $ 150.- amplifiers.
But ... more money on amps will not get you objectively 'better sound'.
It might give you a 'better feel of (price) balance' which ultimately could make you enjoy the set more (even when the actual sound quality did not change).

Also don't stare blind on specs. You can't hear distortion below 0.01% so everything 'better' than that is pointless from a 'sound quality viewpoint'.

All an amplifier needs to do is supply enough power to drive it even at irresponsible loud levels.
This means your 32ohm 105dB/V headphone when you (occasionally) want to play impressively loud for short moments requires an amp that can supply 1W in 32ohm.
When you just want to reach very loud levels this drops to 100mW in 32ohm.

 

[Mnyb]

Basically no, a concave earth is not and improvement from flat or spherical it's just as bad as flat

 

[shuppatsu]

I agree with @solderdude and other measured ASR-type responses in this thread. I will only note that we don’t listen to music blind, and things like expense, weight, design, and glowing tubes will influence the way we hear the music. None of us listen to music blind, except in rare circumstances.

I think it’s important not to propagate falsehoods about what audio electronics can and cannot do, in part because those narratives influence how we hear music. But I see nothing wrong with having and enjoying two different kinds of amplifiers. Just be aware that there are usually no actual sonic differences, and try to keep yourself from always chasing the next hyped thing.

 

[Keith_W]

A good amplifier, tube or solid state, simply amplifies with no particular sound of its own

Nailed it, as usual.

To the OP: it's not as if tubes and SS amps sound different, they definitely do. Please watch Erin's video to understand why:

In short, the amplifier interacts with the speaker/headphone impedance curve and the freq response is modified. There are probably a few more factors that Erin hasn't explored in this video, but the point is: there is one ideal (what DVDdoug stated), and everything else is a deviation from that ideal. The mistake that traditional audiophiles / subjectivists make is to think there are multiple versions of the ideal.

Having said that, it is also important to not be too dogmatic about "proper" headphone frequency response. Headphones do not perform the same on your head as the measurements on a test dummy. Pretty substantial deviations from the measured response is possible depending on the shape of your head, ears, whether you wear glasses or not, etc. The only way to make sure you have proper freq response is to measure with in-ear microphones and correct it with DSP. This is onerous for most people, so most headphone enthusiasts tune subjectively with PEQ's or tone controls.

I haven't documented this myself, but I am willing to bet that the variability between test fixture measurements and your head is going to be larger than the difference between SS amp and tube amp. In the end, the difference between SS and tube amp is audible, but the difference does not matter because you will need to adjust the final tonality with PEQ's anyway. So just get the cheapest or nicest looking amp which will do the job, and think about how you will need to EQ it.

 

[Cwopete5]

I used to swear by tube amps, EL34, 6550, 300B, etc.

Then I went off on a hybrid tangent. That lead me to Class D amps, which I really enjoyed.

I still have a NAD C 3050 in reserve as a “battle spare”.

My most recent purchase was a monster Kenwood receiver from a bygone era.

This beast leaves all other amps I’ve owned in the dust.

 

[DMill]

This is such a polarizing subject that Meze probably offers tube amp recos along with SS just so they don’t piss off subjective audiophiles. To each his own and can’t say I blame them. I’ve read numerous times in manuals where manufacturers simply don’t want to enter in the debate and make statements like “use quality cable from your amp to the speaker” or “these speakers include a bi wire option with jumpers if you desire this feature”. They dance around these subjects so 1/2 their prospective buyers don’t feel alienated. Is it a great leadership model for the audio community? Probably not, but remember many of these people are struggling to bring quality products to market and still make a profit. Would it be refreshing to see statements like, “we don’t recommend tube amp because they have been bettered by SS”…Sure. But pick your battles and keep your product selling.