Is it possible to get 120 db dynamic range from recording to listening room?

[RayDunzl]

Houston, close in where there is lots of noise.

I lived and worked in The Woodlands for a couple of years - didn't spend much time inside the beltway.

 

[MattHooper]

View attachment 30186

View attachment 30187

I love Daphnis et Chloe and would like to hear this performance. Has anyone been able to find it on Tidal?
(I ask because Tidal has a pretty crummy search method, especially for classical, and I've had no luck).

 

[restorer-john]

The Benchmark mentioned may be quiet, but it can only swing 56.57V (BTL @ 16ohm)

If you can capture your 110dB of dynamic range, a Mac MC1.2KW can swing nearly 100V RMS over 8 ohms with a rated S/N of 124dB. That puts your content at around 0.3mV and your noise down at approx 60uV.

I don't know what 0.3mV will sound like on most speakers, but you might get a peep out of a horn. At the other end however, two set of earplugs, a solid brick house and some very understanding neighbors.

Let's face it. CD 16/44 gave us a dynamic range that was only ever exploited on industry test discs, never commercial musical content. The lily was well and truly gilded in 24K gold in 1982.

 

[Ron Texas]

I lived and worked in The Woodlands for a couple of years - didn't spend much time inside the beltway.

Inside the beltway? I'm inside 610. The Woodlands is a nice place.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The Benchmark mentioned may be quiet, but it can only swing 56.57V (BTL @ 16ohm)

If you can capture your 110dB of dynamic range, a Mac MC1.2KW can swing nearly 100V RMS over 8 ohms with a rated S/N of 124dB. That puts your content at around 0.3mV and your noise down at approx 60uV.

I don't know what 0.3mV will sound like on most speakers, but you might get a peep out of a horn. At the other end however, two set of earplugs, a solid brick house and some very understanding neighbors.

Let's face it. CD 16/44 gave us a dynamic range that was only ever exploited on industry test discs, never commercial musical content. The lily was well and truly gilded in 24K gold in 1982.

Well, .3 mV would be about 60 db less than 2.83 volts used for testing 8 ohm speakers at 1 watt. So a speaker that can put out 80 db SPL in room with 1 watt (which is most of them) would be loud enough to be heard. Of course such a speaker would reach beyond 120 db SPL at max.

 

[restorer-john]

Of course such a speaker would reach beyond 120 db SPL at max.

And you'd be extracting what was left of the voice coil from the plaster on the opposite wall...

 

[amirm]

I don't have any kind of access to Tidal & they don't seem to give you any kind of search capability before you sign up.

Is this the one?

If so it is on Tidal but took multiple tries to find it (in Roon).

 

[amirm]

Not it. All the services have that one. That one's a 2009 CD from a major label, iirc. He wants the 2015 recording from BIS.

Edit: I just found the BIS one on the Amazon for-pay streaming service too.

Ah, I trust this is the one: https://bis.se/label/bis/ravel-daphnis-et-chloe-1

It is available for preview and download: https://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/ravel-daphnis-et-chloe-2.html

 

[restorer-john]

I often wonder what would have happened if Sony caved to Philips demands to stick with 14bit for CD.

Would wealthy classical/jazz audiophiles in 1983 (the initial target demographic that would bankroll the initial R&D costs for several years) have embraced the format? Would the potential DR of 14bit have been sufficient over LPs to captivate them? Would CD have been just a shorter lived transitional format, instead of the 3+ decade juggernaut it became?

Perhaps we would have got a new super CD 24 bit LPCM format much earlier, and the 'old' original 14/44 may just be collectible trinkets by now. We sure wouldn't be messing around with so-called high-res and silly sampling rates. We may conceivably have had a single 24 bit format for everything from mastering down to distribution. Or would recordable CD have killed it all in any case, along with downloading and mp3 back in the day?

All I know is the dynamic range was the big key selling point for the introduction of CD. Everyone was sick and tired of noise, surface noise and crap intruding into their music and system. The equipment of the day was so far in advance of the primary source format's limitations and audiophile's frustration ruled supreme. CD's dynamic range actually was a breath of fresh air. I remember seeing my Dad (almost) shed a tear or two when listening to some of his first wide dynamic range classical pieces on CD for the first time.

I still have a very early (1st generation 1983) Denon sampler disc that came in the box with our first CD player (as you couldn't easily buy CDs- you had to order them and wait). It has a few classical and jazz pieces with (perhaps) exaggerated dynamic range. You could easily risk dislocating your woofer voice coils if you got a bit too excited with the volume control. (I should extract a classical track for you guys to hear)

 

[MattHooper]

If you can lower yourself to mingle amongst the proletariat, it can be found on either Spotify or Apple Music--you are probably eligible for a free trial from one or both. You just search on "Ravel Yannick." It will pull up two recordings. You want the one where it looks like the guy on the cover has lost his balance mired in his outrage and is about to fall over backwards.

YouTube Music does not seem to have it. So I'd give 50/50 odds Tidal has it. I don't have any kind of access to Tidal & they don't seem to give you any kind of search capability before you sign up.

Thanks, I appreciate the reply.

However, I refuse to dirty my hands in those sub-par streaming services ;-)

If I can't find it in Tidal, I'll probably download from the link amirm provided.

 

[Hugo9000]

Is this the one?
View attachment 30202

If so it is on Tidal but took multiple tries to find it (in Roon).

That's a beautiful recording as well, not as well recorded as the BIS, of course, and only the 2nd Suite, not the full Daphnis et Chloé. The Warner disc has my favorite performance of Ravel's La valse, and the other pieces are gorgeous as well. I owned and enjoyed this album which led me to order the BIS recording as I wanted to hear Nézet-Séguin/Rotterdam perform the full ballet. I figured the BIS sonics would be superior, but I had no idea just how dramatic the difference would be (especially as the Warner recording is itself very very fine).

Edited to add: a point that I neglected to make in my post earlier today extolling the superb engineering of the BIS complete Daphnis et Chloé by Nézet-Séguin/Rotterdam--it's not an idle exercise in numbers or one-upmanship to achieve such superior recording/engineering of works like this. It's actually necessary to fully reveal the genius and glory and exquisite detail of Ravel's masterful orchestration. No LP could have presented this performance in its full splendor. And of course, it would be in vain if not at the service of great musicianship/art as it is here.

 

[Daverz]

I love Daphnis et Chloe and would like to hear this performance. Has anyone been able to find it on Tidal?
(I ask because Tidal has a pretty crummy search method, especially for classical, and I've had no luck).

Search for "ravel daphnis":

https://tidal.com/browse/album/56902444

From a review in Fanfare by Steven Kruger:

"The dynamic range of the performance is impressive here, immediately noticeable at the opening. Nézet-Séguin is masterful at finding meaning in anything quiet. But as the music comes to life, one finds a veil over the middle and upper reaches of the orchestra. The sound is rich but opaque. Upper string passages seem muffled by the presence of the chorus. And the bass drum now thickens every moment in which it participates to an unnatural degree. It is obvious that a microphone is nearly on top of it.
[...]
I have never heard a Daphnis and Chloe which so much reminded me of the Brahms German Requiem."

 

[Willem]

My take home from all this is that it is technically possible or almost possible to reproduce the necessary dynamic range of even the most demanding music. Recording this is (almost) possible, but in practice reproducing this at home may be a challenge. You need a very quiet room, powerful amplification and speakers that can handle that power. In practice this may be a good argument in favour of subwoofers as the bottom end is where all this power is needed. At the same time injecting massive low frequency energy into a domestic room is asking for trouble.
In reality of course very few modern recordings achieve the kind of almost realistic dynamic range achieved by BIS, and regrettably this is where the real issue is. Low dynamic range is not a technical inevitability like it was in the vinyl age but a commercial choice. Apart from legitimate artistic preferences for a 'loud' sound, there is indeed a practical argument in favour of dynamic compression to make the music playable in noisy environments like cars and on lo-fi gear. I think here the industry has missed an opportunity. With modern budget consumer electronics it is a piece of cake to implement a dynamic compression feature in their dsp. You do not need separate mastering for high and low dynamic range. High dynamic range is enough if the playback system has a setting to reduce it.

 

[MC_RME]

Ah, I trust this is the one: https://bis.se/label/bis/ravel-daphnis-et-chloe-1

It is available for preview and download: https://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/ravel-daphnis-et-chloe-2.html

Shameless self advertisement: BIS uses RME equipment. This recording is (most probably) done using Micstasy as microphone preamp to MADI, and MADIface XT to record the MADI signal into the computer. According to the booklet at 24/96.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I found the recording on Qobuz and it is splendid, with a higher dynamic range than usual.
I listened to it in my study where the UPS noise was audible in the quiet bits. I will try again later in my music room.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I do think this thread indicates that judicious and careful use of compression is useful.

If recording without compromise so as to maximise DR results in having to listen to music with a hand on the volume control and puts demands on audio systems that few can properly fulfil then it becomes a bit of an empty result. Yes, it is probably a wonderful technical achievement in isolation but from the perspective of most users the result will be sub-optimal.

Compression has gotten a bad name from the excesses we've seen in rock and pop and some of the dire re-masters we have experienced but if used sensitively it has its place.

And that is before even considering that if most music nowadays is played on small BT and multi-room speakers or car audio then inevitably that's what will set the demands for recording. What I do wonder is whether any recording companies would do parallel masters, a compressed one for the mainstream market and an alternative one aimed at people who want a wider dynamic range version?

I can understand why compression was and is used, but I find that compression takes away the feeling of "being there" to a greater extent than any other manipulation.
I may be lucky in having a quiet room, distant neigbours and speakers and amps that can deal with it, but my own recordings sound more realistic to me than most commercial ones despite my being a complete amateur using only 2 microphones. Labels like BIS are a godsend, I will be buying more from them (though not Daphnis & Chloe which is not really my taste )
All compression is bad for a realistic feel IME but we have to put up with it for the good of the masses

 

[JJB70]

I can understand why compression was and is used, but I find that compression takes away the feeling of "being there" to a greater extent than any other manipulation.
I may be lucky in having a quiet room, distant neigbours and speakers and amps that can deal with it, but my own recordings sound more realistic to me than most commercial ones despite my being a complete amateur using only 2 microphones. Labels like BIS are a godsend, I will be buying more from them (though not Daphnis & Chloe which is not really my taste )
All compression is bad for a realistic feel IME but we have to put up with it for the good of the masses

I tend to agree in principle but I think that the recording labels are between a rock and a hard place on this one. The only way out I can see is tiered releases. One of the selling points of some high res music is using superior masters, which to me is the only real reason I would get into high res.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I tend to agree in principle but I think that the recording labels are between a rock and a hard place on this one. The only way out I can see is tiered releases. One of the selling points of some high res music is using superior masters, which to me is the only real reason I would get into high res.

Yes, I thought for years that someone pushing high res would catch on. When remastering something instead of compressing it more as is the modern convention, why not advertise how little compression was used? Extended frequency and extended dynamic range.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes, I thought for years that someone pushing high res would catch on. When remastering something instead of compressing it more as is the modern convention, why not advertise how little compression was used? Extended frequency and extended dynamic range.

Indeed, with so much being sold as downloadable files a compressed as normal and a not-buggered-about option wouldn't be impossible. OTOH It would mean me going back to downloaded files

 

[MattHooper]

Search for "ravel daphnis":

https://tidal.com/browse/album/56902444

From a review in Fanfare by Steven Kruger:

"The dynamic range of the performance is impressive here, immediately noticeable at the opening. Nézet-Séguin is masterful at finding meaning in anything quiet. But as the music comes to life, one finds a veil over the middle and upper reaches of the orchestra. The sound is rich but opaque. Upper string passages seem muffled by the presence of the chorus. And the bass drum now thickens every moment in which it participates to an unnatural degree. It is obvious that a microphone is nearly on top of it.
[...]
I have never heard a Daphnis and Chloe which so much reminded me of the Brahms German Requiem."

Thank you !!!!

The Tidal search mode is simply maddening! Whether I searched in the Tidal app on my phone, on my computer, or through the squeezebox iPeng app I use to control my server (which incorporates Tidal), no search terms would call that album up. Even the one you just gave me. The only way I could get to it was from the link you just provided.

This brings up one of my gripes with streaming. Or, at least with my experience of Tidal. I can find no way to create a music library that comes close to the organization available to my ripped CDs library. The server apps allow quite detailed categories. But the all that happens with Tidal is "save to favorites" and so every single type of music is just mashed together, and every attempt to find a certain album involves scrolling through all the favorites to try and find it. Needle in a haystack. It just sucks.

I have no idea if other streaming services allow for more powerful and easy music collection organisation, but if not, I'm amazed at how people would have switched entirely to streaming services given such a deficit.