Is it possible to be honest and a successful Hi-Fi salesperson?

[Bleib]

Old topic. But yes, I believe it's possible to survive by being honest. But businesses which also tend to sell snake oil and false promises are more likely to make more money and win in the end, they'll simply sell more. With that more ads, possibility to expand etc

 

[kemmler3D]

Very old topic and I've read basically none of the replies, but I'm going with a qualified "no".

If you won't lie to your customers about how audio works, someone else will, and will take the time to discredit your honest, scientifically-based guidance while they're at it.

People come to a hi-fi salesperson to be sold hi-fi. The reality of hi-fi is somewhat disappointing when you get right down to it. Most components (over ~$200, other than transducers) you can buy are either snake oil or have nearly zero chance of improving your sound in a noticeable way. But the preponderance of audio reviewing and writing and youtube commentary ignores this fact and even goes out of its way to dispute it.

Selling the truth in hi-fi, it seems to me you are swimming upstream.

In the consumer audio segment, I noticed it was hard to compete without lying about certain specs, because everyone lies about them, flagrantly, especially frequency response width and wattage. In the high end, where buyers think they know more but don't, I imagine it's even worse.

 

[antcollinet]

Different people see the world through different lenses, sometimes extremely different lenses. I am not qualified to evaluate the validity of those lenses, and in particular not the ones that are extremely different from my own. My guess is that life experiences very different from mine result in worldviews which are likewise very different from mine.

Through my lens I only see good in what you did, and through my lens that good is not retroactively invalidated by your writing about your experience. Imo both of these actions - your gift of the television, and your mentioning it in this thread - tend to make the world a little bit better place.

And just for the record, you have never come across to me as someone claiming virtue or expecting or even wanting praise.

Thanks, I do appreciate those words, because I was beginning to wonder... but to be honest, I only mentioned it as an example to try and get an understanding this:

Anyone trying to sell you something is technically dishonest. And that could even fall into someone giving something away. As giving stuff away could mean something they dont want, making room for themselves or to make them feel good in some way

So far, I have still failed to gain that understanding.

Fundamentally when I no longer need something I usually give it away. It is normally less hassle than selling, I don't need the money, and I prefer it not to go into landfill. It is as simple as that.

 

[kemmler3D]

Anyone trying to sell you something is technically dishonest. And that could even fall into someone giving something away. As giving stuff away could mean something they dont want, making room for themselves or to make them feel good in some way. Scientifically speaking there is no such thing as an ethical business.

Pursuit of self-interest and honesty are two entirely different concepts.

Certainly commerce and even philanthropy converges with self-interest, but you can say that about any action taken by humans, ever. It's not an informative insight IMO.

I sold some old B&W speakers that I liked but didn't have room for. I told the buyer that, let them have a listen, and sold them for about what I paid in the first place. Where's the lapse in ethics?

If I sell you a set of barbells knowing you expect to get big muscles, but also knowing the odds are against you, is that a lapse in ethics? What should I do about your inflated expectations for your physique? What am I *ethically obligated* to do? Where does the obligation of a seller end in terms of the well-being and benefit of a buyer?

 

[Duke]

In the consumer audio segment, I noticed it was hard to compete without lying about certain specs, because everyone lies about them, flagrantly, especially frequency response width and wattage. In the high end, where buyers think they know more but don't, I imagine it's even worse.

Is "everyone else lies about it" a good enough reason to be dishonest?

In my opinion, no.

Selling the truth in hi-fi, it seems to me you are swimming upstream.

Imo honesty can be a choice one makes without factoring in how it will affect their business. And if that means "swimming upstream"... well, only dead fish never swim against the current.

Pursuit of self-interest and honesty are two entirely different concepts.

[off-topic tangent] If one draws a tight circle separating "us" (or even "me") from "them" (or even "everyone else"), then it can be "okay" to be dishonest towards "them" if doing so would benefit "us".

However if one draws a big enough circle, there is no longer a "them" on the outside that it's "okay" to deceive and/or cheat.

Just to be clear: I do not claim to live up to this lofty ideal, but it is what I aspire to.

[/tangent]

 

[Sokel]

We tend to forget that "honesty" is a selling point as well.
And the advertised "honesty" works wonders sometimes but it's no different than any other selling tactic, its appeal to certain people is strong.

Buying from "Honest Joe" is kind of reassuring, isn't it? Coincidentally though, "Honest Joe" only sells the lowest tier usually, its honesty is not a choice but a necessity.
Until he reaches the point that even snake oil seems a honest snake oil when sold by him.

So...

 

[Duke]

We tend to forget that "honesty" is a selling point as well.

Agreed... but if honesty is one's policy only because it is a selling point, what happens when there is a compelling reason to say or do something deceptive in order to make an important sale?

Buying from "Honest Joe" is kind of reassuring, isn't it? Coincidentally though, "Honest Joe" only sells the lowest tier usually, its honesty is not a choice but a necessity.
Until he reaches the point that even snake oil seems a honest snake oil when sold by him.

I see you have already answered my question!

(Ime if someone is advertising their honesty, that's a red flag. Maybe that's my suppressed inner cynic having a say after all.)

Imo honesty (building trust) as a selling point is better than dishonesty for the sake of a sale, but honesty as a character trait gets a higher "preference score" from me.

 

[kemmler3D]

Is "everyone else lies about it" a good enough reason to be dishonest?

In my opinion, no.

Agree, but it certainly feels aggravating when false advertising becomes the norm.

 

[Sokel]

Agreed... but if honesty is one's policy only because it is a selling point, what happens when there is a compelling reason to say or do something deceptive in order to make an important sale?



I see you have already answered my question!

(Ime if someone is advertising their honesty, that's a red flag. Maybe that's my suppressed inner cynic having a say after all.)

Imo honesty (building trust) as a selling point is better than dishonesty for the sake of a sale, but honesty as a character trait gets a higher "preference score" from me.

Too many stuff involved.
The main one is that Joe sells itself, mainly. Gear is a secondary.

Do I prefer that from a faceless big company that also delivers? Not always, mainly because Joe's job will go away with him if he find something better to do or if life gets in the way demanding a real profit out of him.

Honest Joe and dishonest Joe both take your sight away from the target, even if they say "look!" .
And at the end of the day the one who sold you the gear is you, yourself.

 

[pablolie]

I truly believe the loyalty to a shop or business days are gone, or certainly numbered if not completely gone. E commerce is just too powerful now. As you say, people are not complete idiots, just search online and get the best price. You’re an idiot if you go physically shopping looking for deals, they are all at your convenience already at home, and you're more likely to get the best deal that way without leaving the house.

Who can realistically compete with giants like Amazon or online retailers, no one.

What I said equally applies to online businesses. I know several brands and websites I'll never buy from again.

And price is NEVER the only criteria I use (and I am sorry if you do, kind of explains your bitterness though) - good service and support add to a positive customer experience and therefore loyalty, which are top considerations for any business that has the ambition to survive mid term.

You view is flawed, sorry. Businesses do NOT prosper even mid-term based on predatory behavior. You should subscribe to HBR to further your views on what makes a businesses successful.

Anyone that tries to compete with Amazon's (or other such companies') infrastructure and scale is a fool, moreover. And customer service is a way to differentiate oneself in that environment... as successful Amazon sellers will show. They build on Amazon's excellent no-questions return policy and go from there with help, responsiveness, etc. EVERY business leverages a supply chain, and Amazon is not different - it is successful BECAUSE it was build around premises that REDUCE buyers' risk and extend that to sellers smart enough to build on that.

 

[Westsounds]

And price is NEVER the only criteria I use

Well more fool you then, and if you want to throw money away, it's your money to waste. You have the product, a middle man (usually), and then the consumer. If you want some Inflammation on that middle part, you can pay for it. You generally have more rights with distance selling anyway as a consumer, you can throw those away as well by visiting your local snake oil salesman and swallowing his baloney

 

[Sokel]

Well more fool you then, and if you want to throw money away, it's your money to waste. You have the product, a middle man (usually), and then the consumer. If you want some Inflammation on that middle part, you can pay for it. You generally have more rights with distance selling anyway as a consumer, you can throw those away as well by visiting your local snake oil salesman and swallowing his baloney

OK, one thing at a time.

I have a very long, lasting relationship with my dealer (my main one) .
To the point that we laugh together with the "Internet" prices around, specially for thingies.
The multi-thousand cables for example are usually a give-away to long-term clients, I have a bunch that I payed nothing for, I pay more for my mogami's I built myself out of vice!

And then we talk all about nice things that make a good speaker and can be had for VERY reasonable prices until the counter hit high SPL-Low distortion along with the goodies. The Honest Joes around tend to forget this factor sometimes.

At the end of the day the main question is "Why do I need the Honest Joe" ? All the knowledge around is almost readily available, all you have to do is ask.
The sad answer is that people need Honest Joe to save them from themselves, no one else.

 

[Keith_W]

You have to wonder if it's possible to be an honest and successful ANYTHING, if by "successful" you mean "wealthy".

If you are a lawyer, do you advise a client that he has no case and he should drop it? Or do you take on the case anyway knowing that your client will lose, but you will pocket a lot of lawyer fees?

If you are a contractor, do you underbid for a job and then cut corners in construction?

If you are a surgeon, do you advise the patient that surgery is necessary when the patient might be better off without it?

If you are an artist, do you tape bananas to walls or install a giant inflatable buttplug in Paris and call it art? Or compose music entirely of silence or try to pass off an unpainted white canvas as art? Or make sculptures of urinals, install machines that make poop ... don't get me started!

If you are CEO of a tech company, do you force your users to purchase dongles by removing essential ports? Perhaps build phones that deliberately slow down with OS updates and force consumers to upgrade to the newest phones?

I'm not even going to go into politics because that's banned here. Needless to say, no shortage of dishonesty there.

 

[pablolie]

Well more fool you then, and if you want to throw money away, it's your money to waste. You have the product, a middle man (usually), and then the consumer. If you want some Inflammation on that middle part, you can pay for it. You generally have more rights with distance selling anyway as a consumer, you can throw those away as well by visiting your local snake oil salesman and swallowing his baloney

At least I am not a bitter consumer. My method seems to make me happier than yours clearly has. Your argument remains flawed. No more replies to you

 

[kemmler3D]

Or compose music entirely of silence or try to pass off an unpainted white canvas as art? Or make sculptures of urinals, install machines that make poop ... don't get me started!

Not to derail the thread but I'm willing to at least defend John Cage and Duchamp. Those works were about calling attention to the medium and getting people to think about art more deeply, not laziness or contempt for their audience or craft. Both of them also created plenty of work that doesn't prompt anyone to jump out of their seat screaming "MY KID COULD DO THAT!".

 

[Westsounds]

At least I am not a bitter consumer. My method seems to make me happier than yours clearly has. Your argument remains flawed. No more replies to you

I'm not bitter about anything, I don't know why you are assuming I am. I just joined in a discussion about sales people and how fundamentally, you have to push your own agenda in order to survive. You don't sell anything, you don't stay in sales or make a profit. I am glad there's no more replies from you anyway.

 

[Keith_W]

Not to derail the thread but I'm willing to at least defend John Cage and Duchamp. Those works were about calling attention to the medium and getting people to think about art more deeply, not laziness or contempt for their audience or craft. Both of them also created plenty of work that doesn't prompt anyone to jump out of their seat screaming "MY KID COULD DO THAT!".

We have to agree to disagree on that one. I get pretty worked up about it and have been in some violent arguments with some of my friends

 

[EJ3]

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The owner of this store has toned his rhetoric down a bit over the years, shall we say... at least they try. I don't understand why they started selling Isotek power leads though?

Demand from customers, probably.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Hmm, it just dawned on me that anyone who answers "no" is saying that @amirm's own new business (importing and selling hifi equipment, starting with ascilabs speakers) is:

• dishonest

or

• destined to fail

 

[Purité Audio]

Direct sales benefits both manufacturer and consumer, retailers are superfluous, what value do they add?
Keith