Is it possible to be honest and a successful Hi-Fi salesperson?

[Doodski]

How is it possible to be an honest salesman of anything? Your job as a salesman is to get sales. All of them diminish the faults of their product and exaggerate the benefits. They don't draw your attention to the dodgy aspects of the warranty, or where the manufacturer could have cut costs.

Not for me. I had about 10 complete top name brands of speaker product lines on offer, usually 6 or so home audio electronics lines on offer and all on display and up and running for auditioning. I didn't have to deceive because I picked the best of them for the customers' money and sold those.

 

[JSmith]

I take your point that a good salesman should be able to sell anything, my question I suppose is how do you live with yourself knowing that you have persuaded someone to part with a sum of cash over and above for a component you know won’t offer any benefits in terms of sound quality.

Most customers want to select from a range of products at various price points... so one stocks their store with quality products that measure from decent to excellent and the full line of those products and brands. Don't BS, let the customer decide what they want to buy and spend, then at least you know however much they have spent they have gone home with a decent system. The rest is really on the manufacturer. Don't sell any snake oil...

Alas such stores in general are few and far between in 2023, in many places non-existent.


JSmith

 

[Blumlein 88]

Some salesmen only want to "leave no money on the table". In other words, make the mark, figure out what and how much the mark is good for, and get that amount while leaving the mark happy.

I've also seen salesmen talk about selling a product in demand at the going price. Make the customer happy and we cannot know enough to do more.

Over the years with audio emporia, my main complaint wasn't that they were like the salesman making the mark, it was they were so inept they couldn't even or for stupid philosophical reasons wouldn't do that. They actively tried not to take my money. I've run across two who I thought were good. They were honest, didn't try and oversell, but willing to share knowledge when I was young or let me try things out with no obligation. Literally as in not even a quick facial expression of distaste. They were aficionadoes themselves. One was a staunch subjectivist of whom you surely have heard of. The other was more rational. I cannot fault someone who believes what they are selling even if they are wrong.

I have dozens of horror stories where people wouldn't help or refused to sell something they sold, but wouldn't sell it to me or to people I knew. They are bizarre.

Here is one example, I with a couple of friends were traveling to a city for other reasons, but one of them was to check out some amps one of my friends was ready to buy. There was a dealer for them there. So on a Saturday when we had trouble finding parking in an exclusive part of town we found the store devoid of customers. We go in and look around. A salesman literally goes into an office to avoid us. Three guys sit around there peeking out, but offering no help. We asked to talk to one of them, they decided they needed to make a phone call. Surprisingly they had the speakers that my friend also had. So great he can hear the amp with his speakers.

So after 15 minutes of no attention: The amps were one of three in the room with the speakers. Several pair of speaker cables coiled up with none on the speakers. So I said, "what the hell, let's hook these up and hear them". I start connecting the speakers to the amps after connecting the preamp to the amp we were interested in. Only then, does one of the three guys come out (he turns out to be the store owner). Asks what we want and we tell him. My friend had called him 3 days before we were there. He stops me and says we cannot hear those speakers on those amps. We ask why not? His reply: I don't want to sale amps or speakers or preamps. I can provide the most value if you will let me put together a complete system for you. We don't sale systems under $30k and prefer not to sale those under $50k. Hmmmm, would have been nice if he had said that on the phone when my friend called. Oh and this was 30 years ago. My friend asked would he not sale the amps, that he was ready to buy if he liked them. He replied no and walked back in his office. Wonder why his store was empty on a busy Saturday afternoon?

Now this was a little more extreme than some, but some odd variation of that has been my normal experience in shop, after shop, after shop. One of the reasons 85% of my purchases were of used gear. I'm not surprised nearly all such shops have disappeared. Now I'm not homeless, don't dress like it or act like it. It is weird, and I kept thinking this cannot be how they all are. Most were. I've been to "seminars" where they were showing off some of their top gear and explaining it to you. Easy way to hear stuff. Then go back and get again treated as if the object was to avoid selling stuff.

 

[Doodski]

Some salesmen only want to "leave no money on the table". In other words, make the mark, figure out what and how much the mark is good for, and get that amount while leaving the mark happy.

I've also seen salesmen talk about selling a product in demand at the going price. Make the customer happy and we cannot know enough to do more.

Over the years with audio emporia, my main complaint wasn't that they were like the salesman making the mark, it was they were so inept they couldn't even or for stupid philosophical reasons wouldn't do that. They actively tried not to take my money. I've run across two who I thought were good. They were honest, didn't try and oversell, but willing to share knowledge when I was young or let me try things out with no obligation. Literally as in not even a quick facial expression of distaste. They were aficionadoes themselves. One was a staunch subjectivist of whom you surely have heard of. The other was more rational. I cannot fault someone who believes what they are selling even if they are wrong.

I have dozens of horror stories where people wouldn't help or refused to sell something they sold, but wouldn't sell it to me or to people I knew. They are bizarre.

Here is one example, I with a couple of friends were traveling to a city for other reasons, but one of them was to check out some amps one of my friends was ready to buy. There was a dealer for them there. So on a Saturday when we had trouble finding parking in an exclusive part of town we found the store devoid of customers. We go in and look around. A salesman literally goes into an office to avoid us. Three guys sit around there peeking out, but offering no help. We asked to talk to one of them, they decided they needed to make a phone call. Surprisingly they had the speakers that my friend also had. So great he can hear the amp with his speakers.

So after 15 minutes of no attention: The amps were one of three in the room with the speakers. Several pair of speaker cables coiled up with none on the speakers. So I said, "what the hell, let's hook these up and hear them". I start connecting the speakers to the amps after connecting the preamp to the amp we were interested in. Only then, does one of the three guys come out (he turns out to be the store owner). Asks what we want and we tell him. My friend had called him 3 days before we were there. He stops me and says we cannot hear those speakers on those amps. We ask why not? His reply: I don't want to sale amps or speakers or preamps. I can provide the most value if you will let me put together a complete system for you. We don't sale systems under $30k and prefer not to sale those under $50k. Hmmmm, would have been nice if he had said that on the phone when my friend called. Oh and this was 30 years ago. My friend asked would he not sale the amps, that he was ready to buy if he liked them. He replied no and walked back in his office. Wonder why his store was empty on a busy Saturday afternoon?

Now this was a little more extreme than some, but some odd variation of that has been my normal experience in shop, after shop, after shop. One of the reasons 85% of my purchases were of used gear. I'm not surprised nearly all such shops have disappeared. Now I'm not homeless, don't dress like it or act like it. It is weird, and I kept thinking this cannot be how they all are. Most were. I've been to "seminars" where they were showing off some of their top gear and explaining it to you. Easy way to hear stuff. Then go back and get again treated as if the object was to avoid selling stuff.

It's bizarre for sure. I've met some kooks but those are out there in left field.

 

[Chrispy]

Thought it looked like a cool job when I was 16 and hanging out in various shops while I shopped/dreamed of my fist system; at least until I got a better job around that time. I never really thought about it again and over the years the shops went away so probably just as well. The good sales folk left me alone and answered questions as I came up with them.....when I did buy I made sure to find those particular ones.

 

[solderdude]

There are quite a few 'high-end' salesmen (hardly any women there) that truly believe in what they are selling.
Those people cannot only live with themselves but, to them, they provide a valuable service by bestowing their wide-range experience and know-how to all things related to audio onto their (potential)clientele.
You cannot walk into any high-end audio store without the snake-oil dripping from every product they sell and they seem to stand behind all of their products.

It is very rare to encounter salesmen that change their tune much when a customer states he is not into snake-oil. They know they probably are not going to sell much high-profit 'stuff' they sell.

 

[Doodski]

Thought it looked like a cool job when I was 16

Being on commission or straight commission is very straining and stressful. You are only as good as your last sales month and the current one that you are in and management does ride people that are not closers. Some management wants to review your sales pitch that you had with each prospective customer that walked out the door without buying anything. It becomes laborious and intimidating. I never was nagged like that but I know peeps that where. As far as I am concerned if a prospective customer wants to walk and research and see other gear I am into that. It serves me by knowing they are serious buyers and part of my sales pitch is to suggest they look around and when they find something come back to me and we can see if we are on the same page and if I am offering the right gear after they looked around. Most came back. Like I said in previous posts here we had the selection and brands names to back up what we said and customers liked our gear. Anywayyy now that the labor laws do not allow straight commission things have changed for the better as there is a base salary plus commission. I don't recommend the job to people. The failure rate is veryy high and I've seen many peeps that where nice people get brain damage or attitude changes from the environment and all the talking and stress. Stay away!

 

[Chrispy]

Being on commission or straight commission is very straining and stressful. You are only as good as your last sales month and the current one that you are in and management does ride people that are not closers. Some management wants to review your sales pitch that you had with each prospective customer that walked out the door without buying anything. It becomes laborious and intimidating. I never was nagged like that but I know peeps that where. As far as I am concerned if a prospective customer wants to walk and research and see other gear I am into that. It serves me by knowing they are serious buyers and part of my sales pitch is to suggest they look around and when they find something come back to me and we can see if we are on the same page and if I am offering the right gear after they looked around. Most came back. Like I said in previous posts here we had the selection and brands names to back up what we said and customers liked our gear. Anywayyy now that the labor laws do not allow straight commission things have changed for the better as there is a base salary plus commission. I don't recommend the job to people. The failure rate is veryy high and I've seen many peeps that where nice people get brain damage or attitude changes from the environment and all the talking and stress. Stay away!

LOL at the time I had no idea of the pay, it just "looked" cool to hang out with audio gear all day long and nice guys like me

 

[Marc v E]

I would really like to hear your experiences with buying Hi-Fi, probably best not to name names but just the overall experience.
I haven’t been into a Hi-Fi shop for thirty years, my dealer when I was a young man was Howard Popeck who sadly just recently passed away.
He was always I recollect pretty straight up with me but then I purchased an active Meridian system and really only sought his advice when I needed a new cartridge for the turntable, this was early 1980’s probably before the Tsunami of ‘everything matters’ hit.
Keith

Yes, I think so. When I first bought my Sennheiser HD650 and headphone amp at a local hifi shop.

I could listen and take all the time I wanted. They treated me just like a customer spending tenfold what I would spend. Imo they were truely honest and the best what you could wish for.

The thing is, after moving house quite a few times and upgrading my system through other dealers, I came to question the merits of cables, mqa, streamers etc.

Looking back I think those people from the first shop were very honest but somewhat fooled by their own ears, eyes and preconceptions. Ime it's just very hard to judge if something is better, if you don't have a spinorama and deep understanding of how electronics work.
I should add that the owner was a hifi enthusiast and so were his staff. It was just a small shop, mostly featuring highish end gear and lots of headphones.

 

[sergeauckland]

Being on commission or straight commission is very straining and stressful. You are only as good as your last sales month and the current one that you are in and management does ride people that are not closers. Some management wants to review your sales pitch that you had with each prospective customer that walked out the door without buying anything. It becomes laborious and intimidating. I never was nagged like that but I know peeps that where. As far as I am concerned if a prospective customer wants to walk and research and see other gear I am into that. It serves me by knowing they are serious buyers and part of my sales pitch is to suggest they look around and when they find something come back to me and we can see if we are on the same page and if I am offering the right gear after they looked around. Most came back. Like I said in previous posts here we had the selection and brands names to back up what we said and customers liked our gear. Anywayyy now that the labor laws do not allow straight commission things have changed for the better as there is a base salary plus commission. I don't recommend the job to people. The failure rate is veryy high and I've seen many peeps that where nice people get brain damage or attitude changes from the environment and all the talking and stress. Stay away!

I can't help feeling that the problem with salesmen is commission. Whether it's commission only, or commission makes up a large part of their compensation, the result is much the same. There's a powerful incentive to sell whether that's in the best interest of the customer, or indeed even in the best long-term interest of the shop.

If there is going to be a financial incentive, then perhaps better is an annual profit-share scheme, although I accept that 'profit' can be manipulated to mean whatever the owner wants it to mean. Nevertheless, there has to be a better method than paying a straight commission based on each sale.

Salesmen motivated to do a Good Job for their customers are likely to be happier in their work, as they're not dependent on every sale to make a living.

But then perhaps pigs might fly...

S.

 

[Doodski]

I can't help feeling that the problem with salesmen is commission. Whether it's commission only, or commission makes up a large part of their compensation, the result is much the same. There's a powerful incentive to sell whether that's in the best interest of the customer, or indeed even in the best long-term interest of the shop.

If there is going to be a financial incentive, then perhaps better is an annual profit-share scheme, although I accept that 'profit' can be manipulated to mean whatever the owner wants it to mean. Nevertheless, there has to be a better method than paying a straight commission based on each sale.

Salesmen motivated to do a Good Job for their customers are likely to be happier in their work, as they're not dependent on every sale to make a living.

But then perhaps pigs might fly...

S.

Some employers like commission because they can stack the floor with extra salespeople and it costs the employer little to nothing if they are not closers and they still maintain the store, merchandise product and such. I would not work for such a place but I've heard about it.

 

[Purité Audio]

I can't help feeling that the problem with salesmen is commission. Whether it's commission only, or commission makes up a large part of their compensation, the result is much the same. There's a powerful incentive to sell whether that's in the best interest of the customer, or indeed even in the best long-term interest of the shop.

If there is going to be a financial incentive, then perhaps better is an annual profit-share scheme, although I accept that 'profit' can be manipulated to mean whatever the owner wants it to mean. Nevertheless, there has to be a better method than paying a straight commission based on each sale.

Salesmen motivated to do a Good Job for their customers are likely to be happier in their work, as they're not dependent on every sale to make a living.

But then perhaps pigs might fly...

S.

When you were in retail you were scrupulously honest weren’t you Serge, I remember you telling me about your experience, I should have taken more notice!
I have been roundly abused for years simply for telling the truth and stating facts, I suppose once an idea takes hold then you look for opinions which reinforce that opinion, I guess that’s how every form of extremism works.
Keith

 

[SSS]

I would really like to hear your experiences with buying Hi-Fi, probably best not to name names but just the overall experience.
I haven’t been into a Hi-Fi shop for thirty years, my dealer when I was a young man was Howard Popeck who sadly just recently passed away.
He was always I recollect pretty straight up with me but then I purchased an active Meridian system and really only sought his advice when I needed a new cartridge for the turntable, this was early 1980’s probably before the Tsunami of ‘everything matters’ hit.
Keith

Decades ago I was demonstrating and selling audio hifi equipment. Since I am a technichian I was honest but felt that the customer who was not technical does not need too much technical details. So a successful sales person does not need too much the technical stuff but feel what the customer expects and likes. If it goes to hi-end then the shop or better to say studio has to be nice with comfort for listening.

 

[Martinvb]

When I worked as a teenager in the tech department of a large electronics store, we had the famous Revox tower (with B77 mounted in a rack) ready for demo. Everyone wanted to listen to this impressive setup playing, and to tweak with the controls, but it was so expensive that finally it started collecting dust. One of my older colleagues was quite skilful at his job and ‘could align very well’ with what his customers wanted to hear. One morning a rather distinguished fellow walked in the store. ‘I’m going to sell him the Revox’, he whispered to me mockingly. And he did…, together with 50m Monster cable.

 

[jamington2004]

I think it’s the same whatever you are buying. A really good shop will sell you what you need / suits you. Even if it means less of a sale money wise. That approach should mean lots of happy customers and good feedback in the long run.

I always remember my brother telling me how he refused to sell someone an expensive professional snowboard that was totally unsuited to a beginner on his first trip. The customer didn’t want the more suitable / cheaper / less cool board, and I am sure my brother could have done with the sale of the other one - but he didn’t want to be part of ruining someone’s holiday selling them a board they wouldn’t be able to handle. so he let them go elsewhere.

That kind of approach led to him becoming one of the best known / most respected snowboard shops in the country with people coming to him from all over

Same could be said for sports shops for example - some would let me buy a Roger Federer spec tennis racket knowing I wouldn’t be able to play with it. A decent one would try and convince me of a more suitable option to suit my game.

I guess same with hifi. Some dealers would push / or just allow a buyer to want a more expensive larger floorstander to be crammed in a small room. Others would try to convince them that they are wasting their money if sound quality was part of the game - and they would be happier with the smaller less expensive model.

When it comes to DACs and cables it must be hard to not take advantage of those extra sales and turn away business - even if knowing 99% of customers wouldn’t need / hear any discernible difference.

Pennies worth from a new member who just joined having finally measured my speakers and now feeling I am a worthy ASR member

 

[Mart68]

Some interesting posts and experiences here. I sold cellphones via telesales for three years, back before smartphones, when there were dozens of totally different 'phones on the market, both cosmetically and feature-wise.

Much like hi-fi people bought on reviews, on what people they knew had, on 'flavour of the month.' We didn't sell the popular units and our prices were high so it wasn't easy to convince someone the item they called up to buy was no good and that something they never heard of was better.

Worse still commission was paid on your conversion rate, you had to make a sale every fourth call on average to make decent money. You couldn't afford to let them hang up without making a sale. Calls lasting an hour or more were common.

First question I always asked was 'What are you using at the moment?' Follow ups, 'What do you like about it, what don't you like?'

Open-ended, gets customer talking about themseleves. The only way to sell was to follow the maxim 'People buy from people they like.'

Hardest work I have ever done but it was in the era when cellphones went from being the preserve of businessmen and drug dealers to the point where even schoolchildren had one so it was lucrative at least for a short while until the market saturated.

I had one hifi dealer, they were rubbish salesmen and the shop went out of business.

I wore a suit and tie for work so I would not wear one at the weekend preferring sports clothes. Who dresses up to buy hi-fi? Could not get any interest from the salesmen even though I wanted to buy. Problem was that they were the only game in town.

Went back the next week, still in the tracksuit but this time with a huge wad of notes in my pocket. Showed this to the salesman. Ah! Now he is interested in selling me an amplifier!

 

[muslhead]

Sure it is. Just like its possible to be an honest and successful politician.
Anything is possible but not highly probable
As soon as money is introduced into the equation, humans change.
Its so prevalent in my business and occurs over and over. Its very sad really.

 

[Ra1zel]

I'm surprised that Hi-Fi dealers can even stay afloat anymore but I guess it's mostly due to ultra high end sales, you know the level when people who buy have no knowledge and no care, they just want the expensive stuff that's considered best by high end magazines. Like you can't convince me that anyone buys a 380k$ turntable other than to flex his wealth to other audiophile friends unless it's M. Fremer.

As for myself most gear purchases were either directly from manufacturer or importer and I'm looking at ASR and other sites that provide data to scout interesting stuff, other than that it's mostly DIY for me.

I can however imagine that luxury home theater integrators make fat money since I wouldn't be able to do everything myself.

 

[pjn]

I usually get a kind of 'Look what the cat's dragged in' kind of greeting, hopefully meant in jest but still...

This sort of reception (couldn't resist...)? - I mostly have had good luck with hi fi salesmen, apart from a big box store who shall be nameless who added some rather unnecessarily expensive audioquest cables (yes, I was naive...)

 

[DSJR]

This sort of reception (couldn't resist...)? - I mostly have had good luck with hi fi salesmen, apart from a big box store who shall be nameless who added some rather unnecessarily expensive audioquest cables (yes, I was naive...)

I cringe when I see that sketch, but diluted down a bit, I'd say it wasn't so far from the truth in many UK specialist dealers back in the early 80's when 'we' thought we knew it all and in ignorance, looked down on all the audio kit @restorer-john often shows us, featuring beautiful engineering inside and out, good well developed circuits and despite being imported, arguably cheaper than the UK made stuff we were peddling... WE didn't care 'cos we knew better (yeah, right) and you see the now senior remnants of that today dotted around the country, the rest having retired thankfully.

P.S. With the exception of Audiolab in the UK 80's scene, practically all the best measuring amps in the HiFi Choice amplifier books 'sounded' lean, thin and spatially 'flat' where the reference amps looking back, were poorly performing and by todays sinad standards, adding their own character or equalisation to the speakers they were driving.